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WHATWG have removed features before, e.g. frameset, font, and applet elements from HTML. All of them were rarely used and had better alternatives available.

naniwaduni 1y ago
XSLT uhhh notably doesn't actually have better alternatives available.
- ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
  html?
  - youngtaff 1y ago
    How do you create a HTML RSS feed?
    - ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
      By rendering it on the server and serving it to the client.
      - youngtaff 1y ago
        And is that RSS feed is part pf a blog that’s static content?
  - Izkata 1y ago
    You're thinking of XML, not XSLT. XSLT is a language for transforming XML into other structures.
    - ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
      But why would a server send me xml instead of html? From the thread you can see that the servers already serve html so why is there a second way to present that content via xslt?
      - sennalen 1y ago
        keeping data orthogonal to presentation
        ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
        How is html not data?
        pas 1y ago
        it can be, but because it started as an SGML language (and nowadays who knows what it is) it allows ambiguous structures, plus it doesn't support arbitrary tags, whereas in XML the structure is strict but the tag schema is completely free.
        bazoom42 1y ago
        Html does not allow ambigous structures. While it has a more flexible syntax than XML, it always parse to an unambigous structure.
        pas 1y ago
        sure, but many browsers support quirks to render malformed HTML, right?
        blincoln 1y ago
        HTML is data and presentation all in one. The idea with XML + XSLT is that the XML contains the raw, structured data, and one or more XSLTs define how to present it. It's similar to a modern web app talking to a REST API to get raw data in JSON form and then using that data in some user-friendly rendered web page. Except it's a standard that anyone can use, instead of everyone rolling their own client-side browser code. Of course, XML is so complicated that it fell out of favour, but that was the idea.
troupo 1y ago
> WHATWG have removed features before, e.g. frameset, font, and applet elements from HTML. font: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=font https://caniuse.com/?search=font frameset: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=frameset https://caniuse.com/?search=frameset applet: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=applet https://caniuse.com/?search=applet > All of them were rarely used and had better alternatives available. "Rarely used" is not enough of a justification
- ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
  So a feature was removed from the spec and it is still supported. I don't see how it would be bad to remove XSLT then?
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    There’s an explicit deside to unship XSLT on the browsers’ part, from what I understand. That’s what motivated the spec proposal in the first place.
- vitus 1y ago
  nit: document.applets is not the same as the <applet> tag. Note: Support for the <applet> element has been removed by all browsers. Therefore, calling document.applets always returns an empty collection. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/applets https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/ap... For instance: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Releases/56 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Rel... The <applet> element has been removed (Firefox bug 1279218). Also see https://github.com/mdn/content/pull/26850 https://github.com/mdn/content/pull/26850 which removed MDN docs for the element a couple years back, citing removals from major browsers. <font> and <frameset> are still implemented in browsers, though, even if they are fully deprecated and marked by WHATWG as obsolete and non-conforming: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/obsolete.html#non-con...
  - 1y ago
8NNTt8z3QvLT8tp 1y ago
Another big example is mutation events which are gone across the board now.

naniwaduni 1y ago

XSLT uhhh notably doesn't actually have better alternatives available.

ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
html?
- youngtaff 1y ago
  How do you create a HTML RSS feed?
  - ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
    By rendering it on the server and serving it to the client.
    - youngtaff 1y ago
      And is that RSS feed is part pf a blog that’s static content?
- Izkata 1y ago
  You're thinking of XML, not XSLT. XSLT is a language for transforming XML into other structures.
  - ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
    But why would a server send me xml instead of html? From the thread you can see that the servers already serve html so why is there a second way to present that content via xslt?
    - sennalen 1y ago
      keeping data orthogonal to presentation
      - ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
        How is html not data?
        pas 1y ago
        it can be, but because it started as an SGML language (and nowadays who knows what it is) it allows ambiguous structures, plus it doesn't support arbitrary tags, whereas in XML the structure is strict but the tag schema is completely free.
        bazoom42 1y ago
        Html does not allow ambigous structures. While it has a more flexible syntax than XML, it always parse to an unambigous structure.
        pas 1y ago
        sure, but many browsers support quirks to render malformed HTML, right?
        blincoln 1y ago
        HTML is data and presentation all in one. The idea with XML + XSLT is that the XML contains the raw, structured data, and one or more XSLTs define how to present it. It's similar to a modern web app talking to a REST API to get raw data in JSON form and then using that data in some user-friendly rendered web page. Except it's a standard that anyone can use, instead of everyone rolling their own client-side browser code. Of course, XML is so complicated that it fell out of favour, but that was the idea.

troupo 1y ago

> WHATWG have removed features before, e.g. frameset, font, and applet elements from HTML. font: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=font https://caniuse.com/?search=font frameset: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=frameset https://caniuse.com/?search=frameset applet: supported in all browsers https://caniuse.com/?search=applet https://caniuse.com/?search=applet > All of them were rarely used and had better alternatives available. "Rarely used" is not enough of a justification

ioasuncvinvaer 1y ago
So a feature was removed from the spec and it is still supported. I don't see how it would be bad to remove XSLT then?
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  There’s an explicit deside to unship XSLT on the browsers’ part, from what I understand. That’s what motivated the spec proposal in the first place.
vitus 1y ago
nit: document.applets is not the same as the <applet> tag. Note: Support for the <applet> element has been removed by all browsers. Therefore, calling document.applets always returns an empty collection. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/applets https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/ap... For instance: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Releases/56 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Rel... The <applet> element has been removed (Firefox bug 1279218). Also see https://github.com/mdn/content/pull/26850 https://github.com/mdn/content/pull/26850 which removed MDN docs for the element a couple years back, citing removals from major browsers. <font> and <frameset> are still implemented in browsers, though, even if they are fully deprecated and marked by WHATWG as obsolete and non-conforming: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/obsolete.html#non-con...
- 1y ago

8NNTt8z3QvLT8tp 1y ago

Another big example is mutation events which are gone across the board now.