6 ms·

I was in a Waymo in SF last weekend riding from the Richmond district to SOMA, and the car actually surprised me by accelerating through two yellow lights. It w

I was in a Waymo in SF last weekend riding from the Richmond district to SOMA, and the car actually surprised me by accelerating through two yellow lights. It was exactly what I would have done. So it seems the cars are able to dial up the assertiveness when appropriate.

scarmig 1y ago
It doesn't seem impossible technically to up the assertiveness. The issue is the tradeoffs: you up the assertiveness, and increase the number of accidents by X%. Inevitably, that will contribute to some fatal crash. Does the decision maker want to be the one trying to justify to the jury knowingly causing an expected one more fatal incident in order to improve average fleet time to destination by 25%?
- mlyle 1y ago
  Nah, it's not that simple. Excessive passiveness causes ambiguity which causes its own risks. You want the cars to follow norms, modifying them down slightly for safety in cases where it's a clear benefit.
- cellis 1y ago
  Reinforcement learning is a helluva drug. I'm sure by now Waymos can time yellows in SF to within a nanosecond, whereas humans will only ever drive through so many yellows will never get that much training data.
  - devilbunny 1y ago
    A human can know the yellows on a few routes. A Waymo can pull over, observe a given intersection for an hour, and tell every other Waymo that exists precisely how long that light lasts. It's not just collecting the information; it's the ability to spread it.
Zigurd 1y ago
An autonomous vehicle's hivemind knows the exact duration of all yellow lights, even ones that vary based on traffic flow.
- astrange 1y ago
  Not if they change the timing.
  - cellis 1y ago
    I'm sure "timing of yellow" is only a few parameters in its network at this point. And it's continuously training, it can probably one-shot the timing changes ( one taxi ride through maybe 3 lights ).
sowbug 1y ago
When red-light cameras are installed at an intersection, the number of rear-end accidents typically increases as drivers unexpectedly slow down instead of speeding up at yellow lights. The cost of these accidents is borne by just about everyone, except the authority profitably operating the red lights. (To be fair, some statistics also show a decrease in right-angle collisions, which is kinda the point of the red-light rules to begin with.)
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  >speeding up at yellow lights I remember reading somewhere accelerating at orange light is actually a ticket-able offense?
  - mckn1ght 1y ago
    My memory may be outdated or only local to my jurisdiction but my understanding is that yellow means “do not enter the intersection” where “intersection” begins before the box, usually with some alternate street indicator, like broken white lines turning to solid, at a braking distance that accounts for posted speed limit and yellow light duration.
    - reddit_clone 1y ago
      My general understanding is , you can still enter the intersection when the light is yellow. If it is already red, you may be photographed and fine sent to your address. Or a nearby cop can give you a ticket.
- 9dev 1y ago
  That seems only like a temporary problem until people get used to actually stopping at red lights, as they are supposed to. After the initial acceptance phase, it should minimise accidents over the longer term.
  - hammock 1y ago
    Unless there is a warning of how long is left on the yellow light, it’s an unsolvable problem because there is an asymmetric risk of stopping vs accelerating

scarmig 1y ago

It doesn't seem impossible technically to up the assertiveness. The issue is the tradeoffs: you up the assertiveness, and increase the number of accidents by X%. Inevitably, that will contribute to some fatal crash. Does the decision maker want to be the one trying to justify to the jury knowingly causing an expected one more fatal incident in order to improve average fleet time to destination by 25%?

mlyle 1y ago
Nah, it's not that simple. Excessive passiveness causes ambiguity which causes its own risks. You want the cars to follow norms, modifying them down slightly for safety in cases where it's a clear benefit.
cellis 1y ago
Reinforcement learning is a helluva drug. I'm sure by now Waymos can time yellows in SF to within a nanosecond, whereas humans will only ever drive through so many yellows will never get that much training data.
- devilbunny 1y ago
  A human can know the yellows on a few routes. A Waymo can pull over, observe a given intersection for an hour, and tell every other Waymo that exists precisely how long that light lasts. It's not just collecting the information; it's the ability to spread it.

Zigurd 1y ago

An autonomous vehicle's hivemind knows the exact duration of all yellow lights, even ones that vary based on traffic flow.

astrange 1y ago
Not if they change the timing.
- cellis 1y ago
  I'm sure "timing of yellow" is only a few parameters in its network at this point. And it's continuously training, it can probably one-shot the timing changes ( one taxi ride through maybe 3 lights ).

sowbug 1y ago

When red-light cameras are installed at an intersection, the number of rear-end accidents typically increases as drivers unexpectedly slow down instead of speeding up at yellow lights. The cost of these accidents is borne by just about everyone, except the authority profitably operating the red lights. (To be fair, some statistics also show a decrease in right-angle collisions, which is kinda the point of the red-light rules to begin with.)

reddit_clone 1y ago
>speeding up at yellow lights I remember reading somewhere accelerating at orange light is actually a ticket-able offense?
- mckn1ght 1y ago
  My memory may be outdated or only local to my jurisdiction but my understanding is that yellow means “do not enter the intersection” where “intersection” begins before the box, usually with some alternate street indicator, like broken white lines turning to solid, at a braking distance that accounts for posted speed limit and yellow light duration.
  - reddit_clone 1y ago
    My general understanding is , you can still enter the intersection when the light is yellow. If it is already red, you may be photographed and fine sent to your address. Or a nearby cop can give you a ticket.
9dev 1y ago
That seems only like a temporary problem until people get used to actually stopping at red lights, as they are supposed to. After the initial acceptance phase, it should minimise accidents over the longer term.
- hammock 1y ago
  Unless there is a warning of how long is left on the yellow light, it’s an unsolvable problem because there is an asymmetric risk of stopping vs accelerating