4 ms·

> no one left behind == no one allowed ahead It's like this in the US (or rather, it was 20 years ago. But I suspect it is now worse anyway) Teachers in my co

> no one left behind == no one allowed ahead It's like this in the US (or rather, it was 20 years ago. But I suspect it is now worse anyway) Teachers in my county were heavily discouraged from failing anyone, because pass rate became a target instead of a metric. They couldn't even give a 0 for an assignment that was never turned in without multiple meetings with the student and approval from an administrator. The net result was classes always proceeded at the rate of the slowest kid in class. Good for the slow kids (that cared), universally bad for everyone else who didn't want to be bored out of their minds. The divide was super apparent between the normal level and honors level classes. I don't know what the right answer is, but there was an insane amount of effort spent on kids who didn't care, whose parents didn't care, who hadn't cared since elementary school, and always ended up dropping out as soon as they hit 18. No differentiation between them, and the ones who really did give a shit and were just a little slow (usually because of a bad home life). It's hard to avoid leaving someone behind when they've already left themselves behind.

SoftTalker 1y ago
I'm not sure when this changed, but in school for me in the 1970s and early '80s the teachers (at least the older ones) were all pretty much of the attitude that "what you get out of school depends on what you put into it" i.e. learning is mostly up to the student. Grades of "F" or zero for uncompleted or totally unsatisfactory work were not uncommon and students did get held back. Dropout age was 16 and those who really didn't care mostly did that. So at least the last two years of high school were mostly all kids who at least wanted to finish.
h2zizzle 1y ago
I'm gonna add another perspective. I was placed, and excelled, in moderately advanced math courses from 3rd grade on. Mostly 'A's through 11th grade precalc (taken because of the one major hiccup, placing only in the second most rigorous track when I entered high school). I ended that year feeling pretty good, with a superior SAT score bagged, high hopes for National Merit, etc. Then came senior year. AP Calculus was a sh/*tshow, because of a confluence of factors: dealing with parents divorcing, social isolation, dysphoria. I hit a wall, and got my only quarterly D, ever. The, "if you get left behind, that's on you, because we're not holding up the bright kids," mentality was catastrophic for me - and also completely inapplicable, because I WAS one of the bright kids! I needed help, and focus. I retook the course in college and got the highest grade in the class, so I confirmed that I was not the problem; unfortunately, though, the damage had been done. I'd chosen a major in the humnities, and had only taken that course as an elective, to prove to myself that I could manage the subject. You would never know that I'd been on-track for a technical career. So, I don't buy that America/Sweden/et al. are full of hopeless demi-students. I was deemed one, and it wasn't true, but the simple perception was devastating. I think there is a larger, overarching deficit of support for students, probably some combination of home life, class structure, and pedagogical incentives. If "no child left behind" is anathema in these circles, the "full speed ahead" approach is not much better.
- cutemonster 1y ago
  But you aren't supposed to choose either or. Instead, you split the students in different groups, different speeds. So it works ok for everyone. You when you're in a good shape, and also works ok for you when you're in a bad life situation. I hope everything went mostly okay in the end for you
  - shcheklein 1y ago
    This is probably the right solution. It seems in reality nobody does this since it is expensive (more teachers, real attention to students, etc). Also if there is an explicit split there will be groups of people who "game" it (spend disproportional amount of time to "train" their kids vs actual natural talent - not sure if this is good or bad). So, it feels to me ideally within the same classroom there should be a natural way to work on your own pace at your own level. Is it possible? Have no idea - seems not, again primarily because it requires a completely different skillset and attention from teachers.
    - BobbyJo 1y ago
      This was the way all schools worked in my county in florida, at least from middle school on. Normal/Honors/AP split is what pretty much every highschool did at the time. You could even go to a local community college instead of HS classes.
    - StableAlkyne 1y ago
      > should be a natural way to work on your own pace at your own level Analogous to the old one-room-school model where one teacher taught all grade levels and students generally worked from textbooks. There were issues with it stemming from specialization (e.g., teaching 1st grade is different than teaching 12th). They were also largely in rural areas and generally had poor facilities. The main barrier in the US to track separation is manpower. Public School teachers are underpaid and treated like shit, and schools don't get enough funding which further reduces the number of teachers. Teachers just don't have the time in the US to do multiple tracks in the classroom.
    - 1y ago
dtauzell 1y ago
Schools my kids attended encourage getting ahead by offering advanced math classes, some being online
aidenn0 1y ago
> It's like this in the US (or rather, it was 20 years ago. But I suspect it is now worse anyway) I'm sure it's regional, but my oldest kid started school in SoCal 13 years ago, and it is definitely worse. Nearly every bad decision gets doubled-down on and the good ones seem to lack follow-through. I spent almost a decade trying to improve things and have given up; my youngest goes to private school now.
chrisBob 1y ago
We are experimenting with our daughter this year: Our school system offers advanced math via their remote learning system. This means that during math class, my kid will take online 6th grade math instead of the regular in-person 5th grade math. We will have to see how it goes, but this could be the advanced math solution we need.
wvlia5 1y ago
I used to be a teacher and taught only to the ones who cared, ignoring the others. This is the knowledge transfer maximization strategy. I even taught digital circuits and boolean logic to a 12 yo, while the other kids in the class couldn't multiply.

SoftTalker 1y ago

I'm not sure when this changed, but in school for me in the 1970s and early '80s the teachers (at least the older ones) were all pretty much of the attitude that "what you get out of school depends on what you put into it" i.e. learning is mostly up to the student. Grades of "F" or zero for uncompleted or totally unsatisfactory work were not uncommon and students did get held back. Dropout age was 16 and those who really didn't care mostly did that. So at least the last two years of high school were mostly all kids who at least wanted to finish.

h2zizzle 1y ago

I'm gonna add another perspective. I was placed, and excelled, in moderately advanced math courses from 3rd grade on. Mostly 'A's through 11th grade precalc (taken because of the one major hiccup, placing only in the second most rigorous track when I entered high school). I ended that year feeling pretty good, with a superior SAT score bagged, high hopes for National Merit, etc. Then came senior year. AP Calculus was a sh/*tshow, because of a confluence of factors: dealing with parents divorcing, social isolation, dysphoria. I hit a wall, and got my only quarterly D, ever. The, "if you get left behind, that's on you, because we're not holding up the bright kids," mentality was catastrophic for me - and also completely inapplicable, because I WAS one of the bright kids! I needed help, and focus. I retook the course in college and got the highest grade in the class, so I confirmed that I was not the problem; unfortunately, though, the damage had been done. I'd chosen a major in the humnities, and had only taken that course as an elective, to prove to myself that I could manage the subject. You would never know that I'd been on-track for a technical career. So, I don't buy that America/Sweden/et al. are full of hopeless demi-students. I was deemed one, and it wasn't true, but the simple perception was devastating. I think there is a larger, overarching deficit of support for students, probably some combination of home life, class structure, and pedagogical incentives. If "no child left behind" is anathema in these circles, the "full speed ahead" approach is not much better.

cutemonster 1y ago
But you aren't supposed to choose either or. Instead, you split the students in different groups, different speeds. So it works ok for everyone. You when you're in a good shape, and also works ok for you when you're in a bad life situation. I hope everything went mostly okay in the end for you
- shcheklein 1y ago
  This is probably the right solution. It seems in reality nobody does this since it is expensive (more teachers, real attention to students, etc). Also if there is an explicit split there will be groups of people who "game" it (spend disproportional amount of time to "train" their kids vs actual natural talent - not sure if this is good or bad). So, it feels to me ideally within the same classroom there should be a natural way to work on your own pace at your own level. Is it possible? Have no idea - seems not, again primarily because it requires a completely different skillset and attention from teachers.
  - BobbyJo 1y ago
    This was the way all schools worked in my county in florida, at least from middle school on. Normal/Honors/AP split is what pretty much every highschool did at the time. You could even go to a local community college instead of HS classes.
  - StableAlkyne 1y ago
    > should be a natural way to work on your own pace at your own level Analogous to the old one-room-school model where one teacher taught all grade levels and students generally worked from textbooks. There were issues with it stemming from specialization (e.g., teaching 1st grade is different than teaching 12th). They were also largely in rural areas and generally had poor facilities. The main barrier in the US to track separation is manpower. Public School teachers are underpaid and treated like shit, and schools don't get enough funding which further reduces the number of teachers. Teachers just don't have the time in the US to do multiple tracks in the classroom.
  - 1y ago

dtauzell 1y ago

Schools my kids attended encourage getting ahead by offering advanced math classes, some being online

aidenn0 1y ago

> It's like this in the US (or rather, it was 20 years ago. But I suspect it is now worse anyway) I'm sure it's regional, but my oldest kid started school in SoCal 13 years ago, and it is definitely worse. Nearly every bad decision gets doubled-down on and the good ones seem to lack follow-through. I spent almost a decade trying to improve things and have given up; my youngest goes to private school now.

chrisBob 1y ago

We are experimenting with our daughter this year: Our school system offers advanced math via their remote learning system. This means that during math class, my kid will take online 6th grade math instead of the regular in-person 5th grade math. We will have to see how it goes, but this could be the advanced math solution we need.

wvlia5 1y ago

I used to be a teacher and taught only to the ones who cared, ignoring the others. This is the knowledge transfer maximization strategy. I even taught digital circuits and boolean logic to a 12 yo, while the other kids in the class couldn't multiply.