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Sadly, Apple and/or Google have the power to retard the adoption of HTML5 as long as they like. "But ender7," you say, "both Mobile Safari and Chrome have grea

by ender7 14y ago

Sadly, Apple and/or Google have the power to retard the adoption of HTML5 as long as they like. "But ender7," you say, "both Mobile Safari and Chrome have great support for HTML5." Yes, they do. Sort of. Except for the crippling bugs in many of their implementations. Some of these bugs render the APIs in question essentially useless on mobile. Or just a giant pain in the ass to work around. Or have performance issues so large that they are impractical for non-toy purposes. How quickly these bugs (and perfomance issues) get fixed will have a huge effect on HTML5 vs. native adoption. So far, this seems to be happening at a rate of "meh". For example, iOS 6 finally fixed the bugs in its HTML5 History API that prevented anyone from using it in a real product. But they did fix it. It only took...a few years.

callahad 14y ago
> Sadly, Apple and/or Google have the power to retard the adoption of HTML5 as long as they like. I'm hopeful that Firefox OS and Firefox for Android will be able to exert competitive pressure in the HTML5 app space, but it will still be a long, hard slog.
chc 14y ago
Realistically, though, Google have always seemed to view HTML5 as being a very good thing, since the Web is their bread and butter. Android seems to be more of a hedge against other vendors' platform dominance than an attempt by Google to lock everything down -- thus why Google actually exerts little control over Android distribution. And I can see a good argument for blocking the open Web being in Apple's interests, but again, historically they've been going as fast as anyone else. They might not move as fast as I'd like, but they're not lagging.
akldfgj 14y ago
Which browser is the shining beacon of light for HTML5?
- monsterix 14y ago
  I kind of like Dolphin browser on iPad; have been playing with it for sometime. It kicks Safari's ass big time, except for the no_file_upload option the web standards' way. I've seen a couple of posts from people comparing iPad's Safari with IE6 (although, Safari has been improving in past few releases...) so not sure which is the favorite browser for people on iPad.
- bgarbiak 14y ago
  Personally, I have high hopes for IE10 and its supposedly tight integration with Windows Phone 8.
- SunboX 14y ago
  It´s mobile safari. I can´t understand, why chrome on android performes this bad compared to mobile safari. :( On desktop it´s the opposite. :?
- knitatoms 14y ago
  The new version of Firefox on Android is fantastic.
  - solnyshok 14y ago
    but it keeps crashing on my dual core 1.2GHz, 512Mb RAM phone
josteink 14y ago
On Android, you can install updated browsers like Firefox and Chrome. Not sure about how well their mobile counter-parts actually support HTML5, but at least you have a choice for a non-system-supplied browser. On iOS you are, as you say, SOL because Apple has literally crippled the options you have down to one: The one they supply and update, once a year.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  >On iOS you are, as you say, SOL because Apple has literally crippled the options you have down to one: The one they supply and update, once a year Especially egregious given Steve Jobs' memo about not supporting Flash on iOS. http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ Some choice quotes: >Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple’s mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member > If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript >New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind It's been two and a half years since that, and still HTML5 has major issues. Given Apple's engineering prowess, I doubt that HTML5 is a priority for them, or else they would've had a great implementation by now. They know that all the apps in the App Store serve as excellent lock in against Android, Windows Phone and RIM. Why make it easier for people to switch instead of dragging their feet with a small update every year?
  - batista 14y ago
    >It's been two and a half years since that, and still HTML5 has major issues. Given Apple's engineering prowess, I doubt that HTML5 is a priority for them, or else they would've had a great implementation by now. Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari? And this is Google, the guys that really like mobile html5 apps. Fact is, it's not that easy to make a good mobile browser --heck, it's not that easy to make a good desktop browser. Still, desktop HTML5 leaves a lot to be desired. Forms support is lacking, the audio side is neglected, SVG still lacks features and is not properly accelerated (even the latest IE that just got it is better in this regard), the client side storage didn't pan out well, typography is still crappy, etc. And this is for the desktop, that doesn't have the battery, memory and performance concerns of the mobile. And it holds true for Safari, Chrome AND Firefox. So, in case you're thinking Apple is doing something especially malicious here, well, they are not.
rimantas 14y ago
> How quickly these bugs (and perfomance issues) get fixed > will have a huge effect on HTML5 vs. native adoption. Hardly. I say that as a guy who've spent more than a dozen years making web. HTML does not scare me, I like CSS and can do fancy stuff with it, I have no problem with JavaScript. I am moving however to Objective-C and Cocoa world. It is so clean and tidy compared to the mess the web technologies stack is. And no matter how great support for HTML5 will be, no matter how performant it becomes—it will be well adopted and very performant mess. We can bring in frameworks and libraries, duct-tape things together, but we are long past the point where we could get rid of all the ugly heritage. My feeling is, that web technologies will be used mostly for the content leaning apps, and for "apply" the native will be a clear choice. Then there is this "cross-platform development" thing. Well, not sure about this one. I guess we are bound either to have mediocre solution for all, or bite the bullet and do native for each platform if best results are desirable.
mtgx 14y ago
Not to mention Apple willingly holding the JIT from being used in the embedded browser.

by ender7 14y ago

callahad 14y ago

> Sadly, Apple and/or Google have the power to retard the adoption of HTML5 as long as they like. I'm hopeful that Firefox OS and Firefox for Android will be able to exert competitive pressure in the HTML5 app space, but it will still be a long, hard slog.

chc 14y ago

Realistically, though, Google have always seemed to view HTML5 as being a very good thing, since the Web is their bread and butter. Android seems to be more of a hedge against other vendors' platform dominance than an attempt by Google to lock everything down -- thus why Google actually exerts little control over Android distribution. And I can see a good argument for blocking the open Web being in Apple's interests, but again, historically they've been going as fast as anyone else. They might not move as fast as I'd like, but they're not lagging.

akldfgj 14y ago

Which browser is the shining beacon of light for HTML5?

monsterix 14y ago
I kind of like Dolphin browser on iPad; have been playing with it for sometime. It kicks Safari's ass big time, except for the no_file_upload option the web standards' way. I've seen a couple of posts from people comparing iPad's Safari with IE6 (although, Safari has been improving in past few releases...) so not sure which is the favorite browser for people on iPad.
bgarbiak 14y ago
Personally, I have high hopes for IE10 and its supposedly tight integration with Windows Phone 8.
SunboX 14y ago
It´s mobile safari. I can´t understand, why chrome on android performes this bad compared to mobile safari. :( On desktop it´s the opposite. :?
knitatoms 14y ago
The new version of Firefox on Android is fantastic.
- solnyshok 14y ago
  but it keeps crashing on my dual core 1.2GHz, 512Mb RAM phone

josteink 14y ago

On Android, you can install updated browsers like Firefox and Chrome. Not sure about how well their mobile counter-parts actually support HTML5, but at least you have a choice for a non-system-supplied browser. On iOS you are, as you say, SOL because Apple has literally crippled the options you have down to one: The one they supply and update, once a year.

recoiledsnake 14y ago
>On iOS you are, as you say, SOL because Apple has literally crippled the options you have down to one: The one they supply and update, once a year Especially egregious given Steve Jobs' memo about not supporting Flash on iOS. http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ Some choice quotes: >Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple’s mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member > If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript >New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind It's been two and a half years since that, and still HTML5 has major issues. Given Apple's engineering prowess, I doubt that HTML5 is a priority for them, or else they would've had a great implementation by now. They know that all the apps in the App Store serve as excellent lock in against Android, Windows Phone and RIM. Why make it easier for people to switch instead of dragging their feet with a small update every year?
- batista 14y ago
  >It's been two and a half years since that, and still HTML5 has major issues. Given Apple's engineering prowess, I doubt that HTML5 is a priority for them, or else they would've had a great implementation by now. Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari? And this is Google, the guys that really like mobile html5 apps. Fact is, it's not that easy to make a good mobile browser --heck, it's not that easy to make a good desktop browser. Still, desktop HTML5 leaves a lot to be desired. Forms support is lacking, the audio side is neglected, SVG still lacks features and is not properly accelerated (even the latest IE that just got it is better in this regard), the client side storage didn't pan out well, typography is still crappy, etc. And this is for the desktop, that doesn't have the battery, memory and performance concerns of the mobile. And it holds true for Safari, Chrome AND Firefox. So, in case you're thinking Apple is doing something especially malicious here, well, they are not.

rimantas 14y ago

> How quickly these bugs (and perfomance issues) get fixed > will have a huge effect on HTML5 vs. native adoption. Hardly. I say that as a guy who've spent more than a dozen years making web. HTML does not scare me, I like CSS and can do fancy stuff with it, I have no problem with JavaScript. I am moving however to Objective-C and Cocoa world. It is so clean and tidy compared to the mess the web technologies stack is. And no matter how great support for HTML5 will be, no matter how performant it becomes—it will be well adopted and very performant mess. We can bring in frameworks and libraries, duct-tape things together, but we are long past the point where we could get rid of all the ugly heritage. My feeling is, that web technologies will be used mostly for the content leaning apps, and for "apply" the native will be a clear choice. Then there is this "cross-platform development" thing. Well, not sure about this one. I guess we are bound either to have mediocre solution for all, or bite the bullet and do native for each platform if best results are desirable.

mtgx 14y ago

Not to mention Apple willingly holding the JIT from being used in the embedded browser.