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This is just the explanation of why it's "drugs and alcohol", and OP probably is well aware of that. The point is there's an argument to be made that even thoug

by stinos 1y ago

This is just the explanation of why it's "drugs and alcohol", and OP probably is well aware of that. The point is there's an argument to be made that even though history shaped this distinction it's harmful in some ways and progress should be made towards removing this partcular distinction and make it one based on science, e.g. a more fair classification based on toxicity/negative effects.

jasode 1y ago
>and proghress should be made towards removing the distinction. [...] history shaped this distinction The point I'm trying to make is that society can't make progress towards unifying alcohol into a category with fetanyl -- because society will continue to use alcohol in socially acceptable functions. It's not just about the past. It's this ongoing use of alcohol that's very different from fetanyl that will continue to keep alcohol as a separate category in the public's mind. Our future behaviors will keep reinforcing the separate categories in future discussions. Yes, you can scientifically unify "alcohol is a drug" together with "fetanyl is a drug" ... but our deep cultural integration with alcohol prevents society from doing that. E.g. Do we expect the bride of a future wedding in 2026 to choose which wine to serve at the reception? Yes and behaviors like that means we'll continue to categorize alcohol as a separate thing from fetanyl in 2026. If the hired wedding planner tells the bride, "how can you order wine when it's in the same scientific category of toxic danger like fetanyl?!?", that planner will get fired.
- stinos 1y ago
  > The point I'm trying to make is that society can't make progress towards unifying alcohol into a category with fetanyl -- because society will continue to use alcohol in socially acceptable functions. Yes I get that point. But that doesn't mean rather simple 'semantic' measures could be taken to make it more obvious alcohol is not exactly healthy. Instead of 'person was under influence of alcohol and cocaine' or 'drugs including alohol', instead of just 'drugs and alcohol'.
socalgal2 1y ago
That science should take into account it positive effects on society at large. it’s possible society wouldn’t exist without alcohol. There are customs about drinking with new partners (tribe leaders, business leaders) because until you see them with their shields down you can’t trust them. https://longnow.org/talks/02022-slingerland/ https://longnow.org/talks/02022-slingerland/ There’s also a lot of joy people get. Removing that joy might be a net negative over all. It’s like another said, cupcakes, ice cream, candy, donuts are bad for you but people get joy from them so we just encourage moderation
- stinos 1y ago
  True, but note that the principles you mention (shields down, joy, encourage moderation) apply to other drugs as well to a certain degree.

by stinos 1y ago

jasode 1y ago

>and proghress should be made towards removing the distinction. [...] history shaped this distinction The point I'm trying to make is that society can't make progress towards unifying alcohol into a category with fetanyl -- because society will continue to use alcohol in socially acceptable functions. It's not just about the past. It's this ongoing use of alcohol that's very different from fetanyl that will continue to keep alcohol as a separate category in the public's mind. Our future behaviors will keep reinforcing the separate categories in future discussions. Yes, you can scientifically unify "alcohol is a drug" together with "fetanyl is a drug" ... but our deep cultural integration with alcohol prevents society from doing that. E.g. Do we expect the bride of a future wedding in 2026 to choose which wine to serve at the reception? Yes and behaviors like that means we'll continue to categorize alcohol as a separate thing from fetanyl in 2026. If the hired wedding planner tells the bride, "how can you order wine when it's in the same scientific category of toxic danger like fetanyl?!?", that planner will get fired.

stinos 1y ago
> The point I'm trying to make is that society can't make progress towards unifying alcohol into a category with fetanyl -- because society will continue to use alcohol in socially acceptable functions. Yes I get that point. But that doesn't mean rather simple 'semantic' measures could be taken to make it more obvious alcohol is not exactly healthy. Instead of 'person was under influence of alcohol and cocaine' or 'drugs including alohol', instead of just 'drugs and alcohol'.

socalgal2 1y ago

That science should take into account it positive effects on society at large. it’s possible society wouldn’t exist without alcohol. There are customs about drinking with new partners (tribe leaders, business leaders) because until you see them with their shields down you can’t trust them. https://longnow.org/talks/02022-slingerland/ https://longnow.org/talks/02022-slingerland/ There’s also a lot of joy people get. Removing that joy might be a net negative over all. It’s like another said, cupcakes, ice cream, candy, donuts are bad for you but people get joy from them so we just encourage moderation

stinos 1y ago
True, but note that the principles you mention (shields down, joy, encourage moderation) apply to other drugs as well to a certain degree.