8 ms·

Dealing with engineers that frequently leave their jobs

53 points by lx 14y ago

Andaith 14y ago
I recently read on HN about how Stack Overflow is being taken over by the editors and that questions are being closed all too often. Is this an example of that? "this might cause debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion." is a bad set of reasons to close a question. Surely that's the desired result? If people start behaving like children, close the question, but until then, let the discussion grow... I think the question is relevant for programmers though. I'd be leery of joining a company with such high turnover.
- antidoh 14y ago
  It's really the most bizarre thing. They built a site with affordances for discussion (although the mods might call them attractive nuisances). It looks every bit like a discussion site. The users clearly want to have discussions, and not just factual Q&A. And yet when you use these affordances to engage with like minded people, you get shut down. It's become a game with myself when I go to an SO page to guess whether it's been shut down, and the result is often a derisive mental "yup." And for the record, I prefer a rich discussion to an inferior imitation of wikipedia.
  - davidlumley 14y ago
    The most confusing thing for me, is that this _isn't_ Stack Overflow - it's Programmers. While SO is meant to have objectively correct answers, and that's why they are so quick to close threads, Programmers is meant to be more open and allow more general questions.
    - jlarocco 14y ago
      Honestly, I have no idea what programmers.stackexchange.com is for. When I found out about it, I thought it could be interesting, so I made a habit of visiting a few times a week to see what it was all about. I stopped visiting after a few weeks because nobody knows what the point is. 90% of the interesting questions are closed as off-topic, closed because they "belong on Stack Overflow", or are closed because the answers are debatable. It's kind of silly, really.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Yep. There was a question on Programmers that was something like "What is the good/bad decision you made in your mid-20s about your career". There were a ton of great answers, and I was so proud of my heavily upvoted answer that I linked it on my website. Only to get a note a couple of months later that the link was 404ing. I looked, and guess what: Not only did the mods close it out of some insane sense of tidiness, and not only did they hide it from normal viewing; they apparently deleted it entirely. All our writing, all the good comments, all the voting: gone forever, without warning or apparent recourse. So fuck them and their petty, arrogant bureaucracy. I will never write an answer for them again.
      - bragh 14y ago
        There was a discussion on stackexchange about Java books or such that was always linked to in case of duplicate questions. Then it got entirely deleted and so all the links to it from dupes got worthless too - and yet the dupes remained and still point to the 404 page.
        notimetorelax 14y ago
        Mods are getting too trigger happy? In fairness if you give random "trusted" strangers power to delete anything they deem inappropriate they will start abusing their power, that's in human nature.
        simonh 14y ago
        But to them they're not abusing it, they're just interpreting the rules very literally and strictly. The problem is that any gameified system, like a karma or reputation system, attracts people good at interpreting rules strictly and finding efficient ways to exploit them. So you're actually selecting for literalist rules lawyers.
        S4M 14y ago
        Apart from giving them a feel of a power, what does the fact of closing a thread (whether legitimately or not) give to the mods? Do they have some karma incentive to do so?
    - ollysb 14y ago
      Who exactly does closing questions benefit? I can't remember the last time I went to stackoverflow to search for an answer. I always find the pages through a google search. Google does a great job of finding me relevant material on stackoverflow and the voting mechanisms on stackoverflow do a great job of letting me know which content the community value. In the early days of stackoverflow I seem to recall they had a policy of keeping similar or even duplicate questions. The reasoning was that the extra interpretations of the same question made it easier to find them in a google search. What they have now seems entirely the opposite, content being removed to the point where it doesn't exist in any form. I don't really care if someone thinks a piece of content is on topic or relevant, if it isn't relevant to me I just won't look at it.
      - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
        Yeah, I cannot recollect getting a useful answer there. Google rarely links to it; the links are often questions without answers (I searched for my question terms after all, not knowing the answer). And why delete anything? Surely they are not running out of space. I'll volunteer $100 so they can buy another Terabyte to store those deleted discussions.
        bunderbunder 14y ago
        My pet theory is that it's something I've come to think of as the "WELL effect". Named for the famous online community which I was a member of for approximately one month in the early 2000s, and which is still talking itself up for how vibrant it was 20 years ago but hasn't been vibrant for any time during this century. It works like this: The oldsters perceive that they enjoy a certain elite status by virtue of how long they've been there, and begin to think of themselves as the "keepers" of the community. They also develop a measure of contempt for newbies, perhaps because they (being new) want to talk about things that the oldsters have had a chance to discuss many times before. And perhaps because they (being new) represent a slightly different culture, which triggers stereotypical "kids these days" instincts. So they begin taking measures to protect the site from junior members. A positive spin is put on it by calling it "upholding community standards", but it would be just as fair to negatively characterize it as "telling those damn kids to get off my lawn." I suppose which one you think it is depends on whether you're the one yelling or being yelled at. Either way, the terminal point is that everyone has gone to have fun somewhere else, essentially because that's precisely what they had been told to do, and all that's left is a hoary old collection of ossified cucumbers fondly remembering how much fun they used to have and wondering where the magic went.
    - bluedanieru 14y ago
      http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq It's not 'anything goes', however. This is a close call, but I agree with the closing in that the post conflicted with the rules. It's possible it could have been worded better to avoid being closed, but even general employee retention strategies don't belong on that site. The problem isn't that they don't allow discussion, it's that the range of topics allowed is so narrow. There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites, and each one has a very narrow, well-defined (but, importantly, poorly-communicated) breadth of allowable topics. And, if you get the wrong bucket it's closed and that's that.
      - antidoh 14y ago
        "There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites" To me there's only one, and the answer pages sometimes look different when I get sent in from DDG or Google. My bad, I guess.
      - wpietri 14y ago
        It was closed at "not constructive", which is obviously thought untrue by the hundreds of people who engaged with it. So I can't agree with the specific closing. It is a mystery to me why a question that yields some answers that are directly about engineers and some that could apply more widely could be considered off topic. One answer explicitly cites the Joel Test. Another specifically discussed the economics of software development, and why the management behavior is pathological specifically for engineering organizations. How much more on topic does one need to be?
        yrizos 14y ago
        Hundreds of people engaging in a question is actually a very good hint that it's Not Constructive (just a hint though). Remember, Programmers and every other Stack Exchange site are about questions and answers, not discussions.
        wpietri 14y ago
        We have deeply different ideas of what constructive means.
  - intellection 14y ago
    / users clearly want to have discussions, and not just factual Q&A. Equally, Quora users clearly crave questions and discussion, but Quora moderation/admins police grammar, content and direction so close people can't type free. It feels hard to think. It feels hard to question. Remember kids fight to feel free and talk free, in grown-up good-rooms of adults saying we need talk more appropriate and legal? Little mind is given to little minds, and big minds in hiding. What do you do, if someone else networked high tells you to change your mind, online? Feels really hard typing free thoughts, stacked with questionable questions questioning questions.
- antidoh 14y ago
  > I'd be leery of joining a company with such high turnover. But how do you find out if turnover is high? Just ask, I suppose, but a manager is going to try to downplay it, since he's selling the company to you. Hit or miss whether workers will be truthful about it, between wanting to be team players and not telling tales out of school. I'm leaving a place with high turnover now. I had no idea. Although I could have entertained some suspicion when my agency told me how much they love this place; churn is lucrative for some people.
  - mtoddh 14y ago
    But how do you find out if turnover is high? It would be interesting if you could measure this with LinkedIn - as in looking at the profiles of all developers who worked for company X and determine how long they stayed on average. Of course it would rely on people actively updating their profiles. But if you could it would be interesting to see how much high turnover at a company correlated with bad reviews for said company on sites like Glassdoor.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    > "Just ask, I suppose, but a manager is going to try to downplay it" And it will be fairly evident when he does. A place with low turnover would be one where the manager can confidently look you in the eye and declare he has low turnover. It is rare for hiring managers to be effective bald-faced liars (HR on the other hand suffers from no such weakness), so they will try to dodge the question instead. Dodgy hiring managers is pretty much the signal for "run for the hills".
  - eru 14y ago
    Don't ask directly about turnover. Ask about average time people stay there. (Depending on your formulation of the question, you give them an opportunity to brag about how much they are growing and thus having new-ish people.)
- smartial_arts 14y ago
  I remember asking once what should I do with my career, provided that I somehow feel that I reached the end of it. Guess what happened to that topic. Likely quora was more open-minded in that regard (although not necessarily heaps more helpful, but I digress).
pungoyal 14y ago
i think the title of this question ought to be - Dealing with a workplace where engineers frequently leave for other opportunities.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
therealarmen 14y ago
An interesting question on a relevant topic? Let's close it. Thanks, SO mods.
- eckyptang 14y ago
  Yes it's annoying. Perhaps there needs to be another alternative on the web which actually values users. People with useful information don't bother with it any more. Its also incredibly fragmented - its impossible to pick the right instance for a question without getting in trouble. its a proper power struggle.
  - jwarzech 14y ago
    I think thats why Quora is doing as well as it is. At first I didn't get how they were differentiating but I find myself going there more and more for hight quality answers from people who know what they are talking about.
- gizzlon 14y ago
  It's right there in the closing message: We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or specific expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion Seems to be according to the SO "rules".. no? Edit: davidlumley points out that this is not SO, and he might have a point.. Anyway, I don't think ppl should be mad at SO for not being what they expect or want it to be.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  There are already far too many answers to the question--more wouldn't really help anything. Any new answers--even really good ones--would just get lost in the noise. Apart from posting answers, there really isn't much else restricted by the question's being closed. I really think it is not a big deal.
  - yrizos 14y ago
    And a few deleted ones. "Sounds like your friend is a bit of a dick. Noone wants to work for him." is one of them (yeap, just that), the whole thread was turning to crap. Closing is only meant to prevent further answers, and this one was deteriorating fast.
Dystopian 14y ago
Back to the topic - (not SO) - I'd agree with some of the other commenters on SO that high-turnover isn't the engineers' fault; it's obviously a management issue. Most engineers that I've worked with would trade a good work environment & office culture for more pay / "room to advance" any day.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Yep, if it's happening many times, it can't be blamed on the individuals. There's definitely a tendency among managers to do this though instead of looking at oneself in the mirror and assessing any shortcomings.
- jt2190 14y ago
  Yes. In addition, I wonder who in that organization benefits from the high-turnover of engineers. For example, in the question, the manager's boss had a theory that three new engineers were worth one seasoned one. Perhaps all of the seasoned engineers leaving is supporting his point, in a bizarre way.
BadassFractal 14y ago
I've had more than one question closed for being too close to a discussion on Programmers. It's very tiresome. What's a good alternative for asking meaningful questions and having a quality discussion with people who have words of wisdom to spare? Quora? Reddit? HN?
- antidoh 14y ago
  I like HN best, some of the subreddits second. I just can't come to like Quora, which is odd because it seems exactly the sort of thing I'd like. The interface is either confusing to me, or I think of it in a way that conflicts with its reality.
  - BadassFractal 14y ago
    The problem with HN is that threads in the New section can get ignored too easily. In my exprience, 4/5 posts I make are never answered.
tyrmored 14y ago
http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/8.jpg http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/8.jpg
- davvid 14y ago
  The original comic is quite entertaining (if you don't mind silly/inappropriate humor). It's called "QA Confidential", and tells the story of how to get a job in QA and milk it for all it's worth. It was written during the heyday of the dot-com boom and nicely captured some of its irrational exuberance. http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/ http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/
grueful 14y ago
This is tangent to the idea of a "truck number" - the number of people who can be hit by a truck before your org is endangered. Orgs with a low truck number really shouldn't be offering significantly below-market compensation to critical staff in high-demand professions.
Peroni 14y ago
Actual response to the original question: Do some research. It's surprisingly easy to find out what the rate of attrition is with your competitors. If the competition have a noticeably lower rate of attrition then it's time for some introspection. Exit interviews are drastically underrated. Done right they can reveal a huge amount about why your attrition is higher than most.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  "done right". Except most people will say "skip them" or "don't say anything bad". I've had this advice from a few people, and there was an HN thread some time back suggesting the same things. "Don't burn any bridges by badmouthing anyone in an exit interview", etc. Certainly there's a difference between "being honest" and "badmouthing", but when that info reaches certain ears, the distinction may be lost. For people that care about having good references, a whitewashed exit interview seems the easiest thing to do (I don't think it's the correct thing to do, but it seems that's a common enough thought process).
chrisbennet 14y ago
The question title should have been: "Dealing with management that drives off our engineers"
rorrr 14y ago
I was offered raises at only one company, ever. At every other company I had to ask for them after positive annual reviews, and I mostly got what I asked for. If you look at the amount of raise, it's usually ridiculously small, maybe 5-10%. When I switch jobs, my salary has grown 30-40% pretty much every time. And that I never understood. When I leave, you have to spend money hiring a good developer, you have to spend money training him, all while possibly losing money because the work is not being done.
- vetler 14y ago
  Someone once told me that the easiest way to get a higher salary will always be to get a new job, and I believe this to be true - either your salary at your new job will be higher, or your current employer will increase your salary to keep you since you have another job offer.
  - praptak 14y ago
    > ... or your current employer will increase your salary to keep you since you have another job offer. Accepting a counter offer is almost never a good decision. The old employer is probably only buying time before replacing you. Even if this is not the case: You stay at a company that only pays you fair money when you threaten to leave. You look disloyal to the old company (see point 1, even if not now you might get fired later) and unreliable to the new one. It also perpetuates the "no raises, we'll just make a counteroffer if necessary" mindset which probably made you seek other job in the first place.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      > "The old employer is probably only buying time before replacing you." A bajillion times this. I've even had HR people admit it off the record that this effect exists and is extremely deliberate - i.e., they get direct instructions from management to "manage out" an employee.
    - eru 14y ago
      I heard that reasoning, too. But couldn't it be still a good strategy? You accept the counteroffer, but go jobhunting again from a higher base.

53 points by lx 14y ago

I recently read on HN about how Stack Overflow is being taken over by the editors and that questions are being closed all too often. Is this an example of that? "this might cause debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion." is a bad set of reasons to close a question. Surely that's the desired result? If people start behaving like children, close the question, but until then, let the discussion grow... I think the question is relevant for programmers though. I'd be leery of joining a company with such high turnover.

antidoh 14y ago
It's really the most bizarre thing. They built a site with affordances for discussion (although the mods might call them attractive nuisances). It looks every bit like a discussion site. The users clearly want to have discussions, and not just factual Q&A. And yet when you use these affordances to engage with like minded people, you get shut down. It's become a game with myself when I go to an SO page to guess whether it's been shut down, and the result is often a derisive mental "yup." And for the record, I prefer a rich discussion to an inferior imitation of wikipedia.
- davidlumley 14y ago
  The most confusing thing for me, is that this _isn't_ Stack Overflow - it's Programmers. While SO is meant to have objectively correct answers, and that's why they are so quick to close threads, Programmers is meant to be more open and allow more general questions.
  - jlarocco 14y ago
    Honestly, I have no idea what programmers.stackexchange.com is for. When I found out about it, I thought it could be interesting, so I made a habit of visiting a few times a week to see what it was all about. I stopped visiting after a few weeks because nobody knows what the point is. 90% of the interesting questions are closed as off-topic, closed because they "belong on Stack Overflow", or are closed because the answers are debatable. It's kind of silly, really.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Yep. There was a question on Programmers that was something like "What is the good/bad decision you made in your mid-20s about your career". There were a ton of great answers, and I was so proud of my heavily upvoted answer that I linked it on my website. Only to get a note a couple of months later that the link was 404ing. I looked, and guess what: Not only did the mods close it out of some insane sense of tidiness, and not only did they hide it from normal viewing; they apparently deleted it entirely. All our writing, all the good comments, all the voting: gone forever, without warning or apparent recourse. So fuck them and their petty, arrogant bureaucracy. I will never write an answer for them again.
    - bragh 14y ago
      There was a discussion on stackexchange about Java books or such that was always linked to in case of duplicate questions. Then it got entirely deleted and so all the links to it from dupes got worthless too - and yet the dupes remained and still point to the 404 page.
      - notimetorelax 14y ago
        Mods are getting too trigger happy? In fairness if you give random "trusted" strangers power to delete anything they deem inappropriate they will start abusing their power, that's in human nature.
        simonh 14y ago
        But to them they're not abusing it, they're just interpreting the rules very literally and strictly. The problem is that any gameified system, like a karma or reputation system, attracts people good at interpreting rules strictly and finding efficient ways to exploit them. So you're actually selecting for literalist rules lawyers.
        S4M 14y ago
        Apart from giving them a feel of a power, what does the fact of closing a thread (whether legitimately or not) give to the mods? Do they have some karma incentive to do so?
  - ollysb 14y ago
    Who exactly does closing questions benefit? I can't remember the last time I went to stackoverflow to search for an answer. I always find the pages through a google search. Google does a great job of finding me relevant material on stackoverflow and the voting mechanisms on stackoverflow do a great job of letting me know which content the community value. In the early days of stackoverflow I seem to recall they had a policy of keeping similar or even duplicate questions. The reasoning was that the extra interpretations of the same question made it easier to find them in a google search. What they have now seems entirely the opposite, content being removed to the point where it doesn't exist in any form. I don't really care if someone thinks a piece of content is on topic or relevant, if it isn't relevant to me I just won't look at it.
    - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
      Yeah, I cannot recollect getting a useful answer there. Google rarely links to it; the links are often questions without answers (I searched for my question terms after all, not knowing the answer). And why delete anything? Surely they are not running out of space. I'll volunteer $100 so they can buy another Terabyte to store those deleted discussions.
      - bunderbunder 14y ago
        My pet theory is that it's something I've come to think of as the "WELL effect". Named for the famous online community which I was a member of for approximately one month in the early 2000s, and which is still talking itself up for how vibrant it was 20 years ago but hasn't been vibrant for any time during this century. It works like this: The oldsters perceive that they enjoy a certain elite status by virtue of how long they've been there, and begin to think of themselves as the "keepers" of the community. They also develop a measure of contempt for newbies, perhaps because they (being new) want to talk about things that the oldsters have had a chance to discuss many times before. And perhaps because they (being new) represent a slightly different culture, which triggers stereotypical "kids these days" instincts. So they begin taking measures to protect the site from junior members. A positive spin is put on it by calling it "upholding community standards", but it would be just as fair to negatively characterize it as "telling those damn kids to get off my lawn." I suppose which one you think it is depends on whether you're the one yelling or being yelled at. Either way, the terminal point is that everyone has gone to have fun somewhere else, essentially because that's precisely what they had been told to do, and all that's left is a hoary old collection of ossified cucumbers fondly remembering how much fun they used to have and wondering where the magic went.
  - bluedanieru 14y ago
    http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq http://programmers.stackexchange.com/faq It's not 'anything goes', however. This is a close call, but I agree with the closing in that the post conflicted with the rules. It's possible it could have been worded better to avoid being closed, but even general employee retention strategies don't belong on that site. The problem isn't that they don't allow discussion, it's that the range of topics allowed is so narrow. There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites, and each one has a very narrow, well-defined (but, importantly, poorly-communicated) breadth of allowable topics. And, if you get the wrong bucket it's closed and that's that.
    - antidoh 14y ago
      "There are many (I've lost count) StackExchange sites" To me there's only one, and the answer pages sometimes look different when I get sent in from DDG or Google. My bad, I guess.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      It was closed at "not constructive", which is obviously thought untrue by the hundreds of people who engaged with it. So I can't agree with the specific closing. It is a mystery to me why a question that yields some answers that are directly about engineers and some that could apply more widely could be considered off topic. One answer explicitly cites the Joel Test. Another specifically discussed the economics of software development, and why the management behavior is pathological specifically for engineering organizations. How much more on topic does one need to be?
      - yrizos 14y ago
        Hundreds of people engaging in a question is actually a very good hint that it's Not Constructive (just a hint though). Remember, Programmers and every other Stack Exchange site are about questions and answers, not discussions.
        wpietri 14y ago
        We have deeply different ideas of what constructive means.
- intellection 14y ago
  / users clearly want to have discussions, and not just factual Q&A. Equally, Quora users clearly crave questions and discussion, but Quora moderation/admins police grammar, content and direction so close people can't type free. It feels hard to think. It feels hard to question. Remember kids fight to feel free and talk free, in grown-up good-rooms of adults saying we need talk more appropriate and legal? Little mind is given to little minds, and big minds in hiding. What do you do, if someone else networked high tells you to change your mind, online? Feels really hard typing free thoughts, stacked with questionable questions questioning questions.
antidoh 14y ago
> I'd be leery of joining a company with such high turnover. But how do you find out if turnover is high? Just ask, I suppose, but a manager is going to try to downplay it, since he's selling the company to you. Hit or miss whether workers will be truthful about it, between wanting to be team players and not telling tales out of school. I'm leaving a place with high turnover now. I had no idea. Although I could have entertained some suspicion when my agency told me how much they love this place; churn is lucrative for some people.
- mtoddh 14y ago
  But how do you find out if turnover is high? It would be interesting if you could measure this with LinkedIn - as in looking at the profiles of all developers who worked for company X and determine how long they stayed on average. Of course it would rely on people actively updating their profiles. But if you could it would be interesting to see how much high turnover at a company correlated with bad reviews for said company on sites like Glassdoor.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "Just ask, I suppose, but a manager is going to try to downplay it" And it will be fairly evident when he does. A place with low turnover would be one where the manager can confidently look you in the eye and declare he has low turnover. It is rare for hiring managers to be effective bald-faced liars (HR on the other hand suffers from no such weakness), so they will try to dodge the question instead. Dodgy hiring managers is pretty much the signal for "run for the hills".
- eru 14y ago
  Don't ask directly about turnover. Ask about average time people stay there. (Depending on your formulation of the question, you give them an opportunity to brag about how much they are growing and thus having new-ish people.)
smartial_arts 14y ago
I remember asking once what should I do with my career, provided that I somehow feel that I reached the end of it. Guess what happened to that topic. Likely quora was more open-minded in that regard (although not necessarily heaps more helpful, but I digress).

pungoyal 14y ago

i think the title of this question ought to be - Dealing with a workplace where engineers frequently leave for other opportunities.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

therealarmen 14y ago

An interesting question on a relevant topic? Let's close it. Thanks, SO mods.

eckyptang 14y ago
Yes it's annoying. Perhaps there needs to be another alternative on the web which actually values users. People with useful information don't bother with it any more. Its also incredibly fragmented - its impossible to pick the right instance for a question without getting in trouble. its a proper power struggle.
- jwarzech 14y ago
  I think thats why Quora is doing as well as it is. At first I didn't get how they were differentiating but I find myself going there more and more for hight quality answers from people who know what they are talking about.
gizzlon 14y ago
It's right there in the closing message: We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or specific expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion Seems to be according to the SO "rules".. no? Edit: davidlumley points out that this is not SO, and he might have a point.. Anyway, I don't think ppl should be mad at SO for not being what they expect or want it to be.
tikhonj 14y ago
There are already far too many answers to the question--more wouldn't really help anything. Any new answers--even really good ones--would just get lost in the noise. Apart from posting answers, there really isn't much else restricted by the question's being closed. I really think it is not a big deal.
- yrizos 14y ago
  And a few deleted ones. "Sounds like your friend is a bit of a dick. Noone wants to work for him." is one of them (yeap, just that), the whole thread was turning to crap. Closing is only meant to prevent further answers, and this one was deteriorating fast.

Dystopian 14y ago

Back to the topic - (not SO) - I'd agree with some of the other commenters on SO that high-turnover isn't the engineers' fault; it's obviously a management issue. Most engineers that I've worked with would trade a good work environment & office culture for more pay / "room to advance" any day.

w1ntermute 14y ago
Yep, if it's happening many times, it can't be blamed on the individuals. There's definitely a tendency among managers to do this though instead of looking at oneself in the mirror and assessing any shortcomings.
jt2190 14y ago
Yes. In addition, I wonder who in that organization benefits from the high-turnover of engineers. For example, in the question, the manager's boss had a theory that three new engineers were worth one seasoned one. Perhaps all of the seasoned engineers leaving is supporting his point, in a bizarre way.

BadassFractal 14y ago

I've had more than one question closed for being too close to a discussion on Programmers. It's very tiresome. What's a good alternative for asking meaningful questions and having a quality discussion with people who have words of wisdom to spare? Quora? Reddit? HN?

antidoh 14y ago
I like HN best, some of the subreddits second. I just can't come to like Quora, which is odd because it seems exactly the sort of thing I'd like. The interface is either confusing to me, or I think of it in a way that conflicts with its reality.
- BadassFractal 14y ago
  The problem with HN is that threads in the New section can get ignored too easily. In my exprience, 4/5 posts I make are never answered.

tyrmored 14y ago

http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/8.jpg http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/8.jpg

davvid 14y ago
The original comic is quite entertaining (if you don't mind silly/inappropriate humor). It's called "QA Confidential", and tells the story of how to get a job in QA and milk it for all it's worth. It was written during the heyday of the dot-com boom and nicely captured some of its irrational exuberance. http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/ http://leisuretown.com/library/qac/

grueful 14y ago

This is tangent to the idea of a "truck number" - the number of people who can be hit by a truck before your org is endangered. Orgs with a low truck number really shouldn't be offering significantly below-market compensation to critical staff in high-demand professions.

Peroni 14y ago

Actual response to the original question: Do some research. It's surprisingly easy to find out what the rate of attrition is with your competitors. If the competition have a noticeably lower rate of attrition then it's time for some introspection. Exit interviews are drastically underrated. Done right they can reveal a huge amount about why your attrition is higher than most.

mgkimsal 14y ago
"done right". Except most people will say "skip them" or "don't say anything bad". I've had this advice from a few people, and there was an HN thread some time back suggesting the same things. "Don't burn any bridges by badmouthing anyone in an exit interview", etc. Certainly there's a difference between "being honest" and "badmouthing", but when that info reaches certain ears, the distinction may be lost. For people that care about having good references, a whitewashed exit interview seems the easiest thing to do (I don't think it's the correct thing to do, but it seems that's a common enough thought process).

chrisbennet 14y ago

The question title should have been: "Dealing with management that drives off our engineers"

rorrr 14y ago

I was offered raises at only one company, ever. At every other company I had to ask for them after positive annual reviews, and I mostly got what I asked for. If you look at the amount of raise, it's usually ridiculously small, maybe 5-10%. When I switch jobs, my salary has grown 30-40% pretty much every time. And that I never understood. When I leave, you have to spend money hiring a good developer, you have to spend money training him, all while possibly losing money because the work is not being done.

vetler 14y ago
Someone once told me that the easiest way to get a higher salary will always be to get a new job, and I believe this to be true - either your salary at your new job will be higher, or your current employer will increase your salary to keep you since you have another job offer.
- praptak 14y ago
  > ... or your current employer will increase your salary to keep you since you have another job offer. Accepting a counter offer is almost never a good decision. The old employer is probably only buying time before replacing you. Even if this is not the case: You stay at a company that only pays you fair money when you threaten to leave. You look disloyal to the old company (see point 1, even if not now you might get fired later) and unreliable to the new one. It also perpetuates the "no raises, we'll just make a counteroffer if necessary" mindset which probably made you seek other job in the first place.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    > "The old employer is probably only buying time before replacing you." A bajillion times this. I've even had HR people admit it off the record that this effect exists and is extremely deliberate - i.e., they get direct instructions from management to "manage out" an employee.
  - eru 14y ago
    I heard that reasoning, too. But couldn't it be still a good strategy? You accept the counteroffer, but go jobhunting again from a higher base.