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If I recall correctly (and I might not), the idea that moderate drinking is healthy came from a faulty study where people who didn't drink at all were less heal

If I recall correctly (and I might not), the idea that moderate drinking is healthy came from a faulty study where people who didn't drink at all were less healthy. But the people who didn't drink at all often didn't drink because they self-excluded because of alcoholism or disease. They weren't less healthy because they didn't drink, they didn't drink because they were less healthy.

HPsquared 1y ago
I wonder if the same applies to exercise and physical activity in general.
- FinnLobsien 1y ago
  Is anyone saying exercise is unhealthy? Not sure I follow the point
- ofrzeta 1y ago
  Exercise releases free radicals, which is bad. Following the hormesis theory this is still benefical in the long run.
dmurray 1y ago
I think you're broadly correct. But it's not one "faulty study". Every attempt to do a broad population-based study of alcohol use vs health outcomes finds this effect. Controlling for why people don't drink is difficult to do without introducing bias. So there are still two competing theories: either the non-drinkers were a less healthy cohort to begin with, or moderate drinking has net health benefits.
- FinnLobsien 1y ago
  The current WHO and IARC guidance is that there's no safe level of alcohol consumption that doesn't affect health and that alcohol is a clear carcinogen. I don't know how that could have health benefits.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    "I don't know how" isn't proof of anything.| You're probably right, but science doesn't advance by saying, "Let's just assume I'm right, and go from there."
    - FinnLobsien 1y ago
      That's true of course. But I also think for practical arguments like this, we don't need exact science. There's a good theory why moderate drinking is still unhealthy (self-exclusion of non-drinkers). There's no proven theory as to why moderate drinking should somehow increase health. So while it's not perfect science, for the practical purpose of making life decisions, that's enough for me.
      - dmurray 1y ago
        There's a pretty clear theory of alcohol as social lubricant, and people with more active social lives having better mental health and slower cognitive decline in old age. There's also a surprisingly strong link between alcohol use and exercise, that persists even when you look at "heavy drinking levels" [0]. In fact, given the fact that alcohol use has such a high effect on certain medical conditions, but such a low impact on all-cause mortality, you can be certain that alcohol use has some strong positive health effects. And it's down to individual circumstances whether the positives are likely to outweigh the negatives. [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2747097/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2747097/
        FinnLobsien 1y ago
        > There's a pretty clear theory of alcohol as social lubricant, and people with more active social lives having better mental health and slower cognitive decline in old age. Sure, but you can have an active social life without consuming alcohol and have the benefits of not drinking AND having an active social life. > There's also a surprisingly strong link between alcohol use and exercise, that persists even when you look at "heavy drinking levels" [0]. Couldn't this be the same fallacy? i.e. the people who don't drink self-exclude from drinking AND exercise because they're sick or injured or whatever? Or could it be that people who are more active in general just do both things more?

HPsquared 1y ago

I wonder if the same applies to exercise and physical activity in general.

FinnLobsien 1y ago
Is anyone saying exercise is unhealthy? Not sure I follow the point
ofrzeta 1y ago
Exercise releases free radicals, which is bad. Following the hormesis theory this is still benefical in the long run.

dmurray 1y ago

I think you're broadly correct. But it's not one "faulty study". Every attempt to do a broad population-based study of alcohol use vs health outcomes finds this effect. Controlling for why people don't drink is difficult to do without introducing bias. So there are still two competing theories: either the non-drinkers were a less healthy cohort to begin with, or moderate drinking has net health benefits.

FinnLobsien 1y ago
The current WHO and IARC guidance is that there's no safe level of alcohol consumption that doesn't affect health and that alcohol is a clear carcinogen. I don't know how that could have health benefits.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  "I don't know how" isn't proof of anything.| You're probably right, but science doesn't advance by saying, "Let's just assume I'm right, and go from there."
  - FinnLobsien 1y ago
    That's true of course. But I also think for practical arguments like this, we don't need exact science. There's a good theory why moderate drinking is still unhealthy (self-exclusion of non-drinkers). There's no proven theory as to why moderate drinking should somehow increase health. So while it's not perfect science, for the practical purpose of making life decisions, that's enough for me.
    - dmurray 1y ago
      There's a pretty clear theory of alcohol as social lubricant, and people with more active social lives having better mental health and slower cognitive decline in old age. There's also a surprisingly strong link between alcohol use and exercise, that persists even when you look at "heavy drinking levels" [0]. In fact, given the fact that alcohol use has such a high effect on certain medical conditions, but such a low impact on all-cause mortality, you can be certain that alcohol use has some strong positive health effects. And it's down to individual circumstances whether the positives are likely to outweigh the negatives. [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2747097/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2747097/
      - FinnLobsien 1y ago
        > There's a pretty clear theory of alcohol as social lubricant, and people with more active social lives having better mental health and slower cognitive decline in old age. Sure, but you can have an active social life without consuming alcohol and have the benefits of not drinking AND having an active social life. > There's also a surprisingly strong link between alcohol use and exercise, that persists even when you look at "heavy drinking levels" [0]. Couldn't this be the same fallacy? i.e. the people who don't drink self-exclude from drinking AND exercise because they're sick or injured or whatever? Or could it be that people who are more active in general just do both things more?