7 ms·

I'm a hardcore Linux user, a sysadmin, developer of some kinds and an humble desktop user. For some IOS projects I have to use an hackintosh. The experience is

by fsniper 14y ago

I'm a hardcore Linux user, a sysadmin, developer of some kinds and an humble desktop user. For some IOS projects I have to use an hackintosh. The experience is - in one word - disgusting. It lacks common denominator keyboard shortcuts and keyboard bindings. It lacks sane default simple applications like a decent terminal emulator. ( Yes Windows lacks is too). unavailability of a great package manager - all of us knows it, homebrew or macports doesn't cut it - makes me vomit. Unfamiliar key bindings makes me think twice or thrice before typing , "Which key should I use for this? Apple or Option? How can I skip to end of line? Why I'm at end of file now?" Also some desktop choices are not ok for my liking; switching to full height windows instead of full screen windows with the maximize button? Why on earth I would opt-in for loosing screen real estate? So many details. Most of the time I can't help myself to stop restarting into Linux. I get slower and distracted. I have to install Mozilla Stack (Thunderbird and Firefox). This may be only me but, I hate OsX. And I'm not starting on the "wanna be walled garden-ness."

seiji 14y ago
decent terminal emulator. -- lie. makes me vomit. -- visit your local physician. Unfamiliar key bindings -- "Unfamiliar" by definition = "I don't know it" which isn't the OS's problem. You've gotta admit Command-C for copy being different than Control-C is brilliant. switching to full height windows -- it's not a maximize button, it's an "optimal size" button. If your content is 500px wide, you don't need a 1000px wide window full of white space. may be only me -- I'm pretty sure it is (check their stock).
- fsniper 14y ago
  Terminal as a decent terminal emulator? I believe you are referring to iTerm2 but that's not the default. unfamiliar key bindings, look for any other keyboard except OsX ones and show me the apple or the option or the command keys then I will back. For the "Optimal Size button", the underlying operation does not account for the contents width, it only accounts for the desktop height. The world is not running on OsX or Apple hardware. They have a decent userbase but not the whole computer users are using one.
  - pooriaazimi 14y ago
    1. Terminal.app is a very good app. I switched to iTerm 2 a while back, but only because of a few minor features that I could've lived without. What are your problems? 2 & 4. You don't run a Hackintosh and expect it to work. If you want OS X, you buy a Mac. And all Macs (except the Mini) come with standard Apple keyboard. 3. I'm not sure what you're talking about. There's no "magic" algorithm that all apps use. Each app can use its own "algorithm" and can account for screen width as well. Just because Finder.app (most of the time) just grows the height doesn't mean all apps should do it, or are doing it.
    - fsniper 14y ago
      Terminal app is a sufficient terminal emulator. But it lacks most of decent options. Can you split windows? Use tabs? Can you change color profiles? May be so many simple decent ap choices are lacking from it. Also I'm not even talking about the lack of simple Terminal emulation modes. I told you I'm a system administrator and I live in terminals. So Terminal.app is not cutting for me. What's wrong with a Hackintosh other then legal and ethics issues if it's running well? I used Apple hardware and my criticisms were the same. and for the 3, If every app is using it's own algorithm than I'm really on the wrong side of the issue. And my criticism lacks proper bases. I have to take it back. But again, why not a maximise button?
      - jsz0 14y ago
        Can you split windows? Use tabs? Can you change color profiles? Yes to all though you can only split windows horizontally. Terminal is a really good app. iTerm2 is great too but a little slower than Terminal in my experience.
        fsniper 14y ago
        I have to switch my os to check these. If you are right It's better than what I think about it.
      - da_n 14y ago
- randall 14y ago
  http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html You're so close! Just put some respect in this and it'd be one of the best refutations i've seen on HN in ages.
  - fsniper 14y ago
    Thank you randall. I lack the ability to down vote (for the seiji's comment) but this made my day. Thank you :)
  - seiji 14y ago
    Respect would require increasing the word count. Hopefully the jump-right-in-and-comment formatting conveyed a half sense of playfulness and half irrational zealotry. After all, mild humour is always more hilarious when fully explained.
ricardobeat 14y ago
I'm curious on the shortcomings of Homebrew (other than like-to-have packages) + app store. And the Terminal, you can have zsh/fish if you want or use iTerm2 for crazy features. On shortcuts: you're just used to another way, it's not the system's fault. It's possible to use both Windows and OSX without much difficulty after getting used to it. At least 50% of the joy of using a mac is due to the hardware and integration.
- jeltz 14y ago
  From my personal experience using homebrew it is two things. 1) The lack of packages combined with lack of quality of the packages (e.g. they do not build or have a poor defaults). 2) That homebrew installs stuff under /usr/local as owned by your user. That does not meet the expectations of UNIX applications and seems to me like it could be unsafe due to messing with expectations. Stuff under /usr/local/bin is supposed to be owned by root:root. The good part of homebrew is that writing homebrew scripts seems easier than writing dpkg or rpm scripts.
  - fsniper 14y ago
    That's a good summary. Thank you. The greatest shortcoming is the lack of packages. After using debian, homebrew is a toy.
  - TheGateKeeper 14y ago
    This is why you use macports ;)
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    I'd like to add two more: 1. Installing everything from source (normally I don't mind compiling, but large packages can take an hour or two. Ironically, OS X doesn't need to support many different architectures, so there's no excuse for not having binary compatibility like Linux does). 2. It doesn't manage the entire system. The process for installing from a .dmg or from the app store is completely different from homebrew, and the two don't talk to each other well (or really at all). I want a single source to manage all of my executable files and their configurations, not a small handful that each manage part of it.
sjwright 14y ago
Sorry fsniper, but most of your criticisms are either factually wrong and/or based in ignorance. Not sure what you mean by common denominator shortcuts, but if you mean things like Quit/Cut/Paste/Print/Save/New/Undo then you're dead wrong. Exists, and largely unchanged for nearly 30 years. And they're highly consistent. If it's a menu command, it's the command key. Mac OS X does not lack a decent terminal emulator. You might have missed it, the program is called Terminal. You might be right about the package managers, but many people would disagree with you. There is no maximize button. You installed Firefox and Thunderbird, so what's the problem? Are you trolling now?
- fsniper 14y ago
  If you are thinking of only OsX world, yeah they have never changed for the last 30 or more years, but the world is not only osx. I'm not a single desktop user, I occasionally switch between boxes and only OsX makes my motor memory to fail. I'm sorry but I can't think of Terminal as a decent Terminal emulator. Not having a maximize button invalidates my criticism but brings another one of unfamiliar titlebar choices. I'm not trolling, I'm speaking of defaults.
  - da_n 14y ago
    "I'm sorry but I can't think of Terminal as a decent Terminal emulator." Well I'm sorry but unless you explain exactly what the shortcomings are to stop it being 'decent' your comments are nothing more than trollish bigotry. You are just coming across as arrogant and ignorant.
    - fsniper 14y ago
      http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4497397 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4497397
  - sjwright 14y ago
    I can't think of top as a decent process monitor, but I don't blame debian for that.
DanBC 14y ago
Shift clicking the green bobble maximises (really maximises, apart from the unremovable Menu bar) the window. Not allowing the user to add this functionality (even if it's a hidden option in a config file somewhere) is sub optimal in my opinion. There are some great things about OSX but there are a few small but frustrating things too.
- fsniper 14y ago
  Thank you. This is a really helpful comment.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    I switched from Windows and Linux to OSX. I found there were many things that I did not know, and had to learn. How do I rename a file in the GUI? (right click, select "get info", change the file name in the box, etc.) How do I do keyboard text navigation? Option (or alt)left or right arrow will move one word. Command left or right arrow will move to the beginning or end of a line. Adding shift will select the text. (etc etc.) How do I turn off the sound when I turn my machine on? (Don't turn the machine off, or use a third party software.) There's some things which can't be done. But, in the end, computers are tools, and people need to be comfortable with their tools. So use whatever fits your needs.
    - tymekpavel 14y ago
      "How do I rename a file in the GUI?" Click once to highlight the file and click again to rename it. No need to go into the "get info" menu. "How do I turn off the sound when I turn my machine on?" Mute the computer before shutting it down.
      - evgen 14y ago
        "the sound" that I think he wants to suppress is the startup chime, which can't be turned off because it serves a very specific hardware debugging purpose related to the boot process. There are hacks that can turn down the volume of the chime but it cannot be completely turned off.
CountSessine 14y ago
The experience is - in one word - disgusting Really? It lacks common denominator keyboard shortcuts and keyboard bindings No it doesn't. Emacs/bash key combos are everywhere. These are the oldest and most important key sequences in use on any computer. CTRL-A, CTRL-E, META-F, META-B, META-D, CTRL-K - and they pervade the Cocoa/Nextstep text engine. They're everywhere. It lacks sane default simple applications like a decent terminal emulator Really? Terminal is pretty awesome in some ways. For example, with the Gnome terminal app, when you resize the window, lines aren't readjusted for width and you end up either cropping lines or leaving a blank space to the right. Terminal seems to be one of the few terminal emulators that gets this right. Unfamiliar key bindings makes me think twice or thrice before typing I don't understand this. Doesn't this just mean that you haven't gotten used to it? How can I skip to end of line? CTRL-E, like I said. If you're an Emacs nut (and I am) you can even edit the file ~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict to make these key bindings work in ANY text field that uses an NSTextField object in ANY OSX application. There's even a global kill-ring. It's awesome. Clearly there were some real Emacs fans who worked on the original Nextstep text engine. switching to full height windows instead of full screen windows with the maximize button? Why on earth I would opt-in for loosing screen real estate It's a 'resize' button, not a maximize button. For many applications, especially those whose content is a fixed or maximum size (like web browsers), a maximize button with a large screen is just silly - you'd waste screen real estate with white or blank borders. What the 'resize' button does is and should be application-specific. For a web browser, it should resize the window to the size of the content. Ditto a word processor. For an IDE like XCode and Eclipse, it should maximize (and both of those do). This may be only me but, I hate OsX It sounds to me like you haven't put much energy into figuring it out and finding the best workflow - certainly not nearly as much energy as I've put into learning the esoterica behind Linux abominations like XKB and Gnome 3. And I would never say that Linux disgusts me - far from it. I think Linux is great.

by fsniper 14y ago

seiji 14y ago

decent terminal emulator. -- lie. makes me vomit. -- visit your local physician. Unfamiliar key bindings -- "Unfamiliar" by definition = "I don't know it" which isn't the OS's problem. You've gotta admit Command-C for copy being different than Control-C is brilliant. switching to full height windows -- it's not a maximize button, it's an "optimal size" button. If your content is 500px wide, you don't need a 1000px wide window full of white space. may be only me -- I'm pretty sure it is (check their stock).

fsniper 14y ago
Terminal as a decent terminal emulator? I believe you are referring to iTerm2 but that's not the default. unfamiliar key bindings, look for any other keyboard except OsX ones and show me the apple or the option or the command keys then I will back. For the "Optimal Size button", the underlying operation does not account for the contents width, it only accounts for the desktop height. The world is not running on OsX or Apple hardware. They have a decent userbase but not the whole computer users are using one.
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  1. Terminal.app is a very good app. I switched to iTerm 2 a while back, but only because of a few minor features that I could've lived without. What are your problems? 2 & 4. You don't run a Hackintosh and expect it to work. If you want OS X, you buy a Mac. And all Macs (except the Mini) come with standard Apple keyboard. 3. I'm not sure what you're talking about. There's no "magic" algorithm that all apps use. Each app can use its own "algorithm" and can account for screen width as well. Just because Finder.app (most of the time) just grows the height doesn't mean all apps should do it, or are doing it.
  - fsniper 14y ago
    Terminal app is a sufficient terminal emulator. But it lacks most of decent options. Can you split windows? Use tabs? Can you change color profiles? May be so many simple decent ap choices are lacking from it. Also I'm not even talking about the lack of simple Terminal emulation modes. I told you I'm a system administrator and I live in terminals. So Terminal.app is not cutting for me. What's wrong with a Hackintosh other then legal and ethics issues if it's running well? I used Apple hardware and my criticisms were the same. and for the 3, If every app is using it's own algorithm than I'm really on the wrong side of the issue. And my criticism lacks proper bases. I have to take it back. But again, why not a maximise button?
    - jsz0 14y ago
      Can you split windows? Use tabs? Can you change color profiles? Yes to all though you can only split windows horizontally. Terminal is a really good app. iTerm2 is great too but a little slower than Terminal in my experience.
      - fsniper 14y ago
        I have to switch my os to check these. If you are right It's better than what I think about it.
    - da_n 14y ago
randall 14y ago
http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html You're so close! Just put some respect in this and it'd be one of the best refutations i've seen on HN in ages.
- fsniper 14y ago
  Thank you randall. I lack the ability to down vote (for the seiji's comment) but this made my day. Thank you :)
- seiji 14y ago
  Respect would require increasing the word count. Hopefully the jump-right-in-and-comment formatting conveyed a half sense of playfulness and half irrational zealotry. After all, mild humour is always more hilarious when fully explained.

ricardobeat 14y ago

I'm curious on the shortcomings of Homebrew (other than like-to-have packages) + app store. And the Terminal, you can have zsh/fish if you want or use iTerm2 for crazy features. On shortcuts: you're just used to another way, it's not the system's fault. It's possible to use both Windows and OSX without much difficulty after getting used to it. At least 50% of the joy of using a mac is due to the hardware and integration.

jeltz 14y ago
From my personal experience using homebrew it is two things. 1) The lack of packages combined with lack of quality of the packages (e.g. they do not build or have a poor defaults). 2) That homebrew installs stuff under /usr/local as owned by your user. That does not meet the expectations of UNIX applications and seems to me like it could be unsafe due to messing with expectations. Stuff under /usr/local/bin is supposed to be owned by root:root. The good part of homebrew is that writing homebrew scripts seems easier than writing dpkg or rpm scripts.
- fsniper 14y ago
  That's a good summary. Thank you. The greatest shortcoming is the lack of packages. After using debian, homebrew is a toy.
- TheGateKeeper 14y ago
  This is why you use macports ;)
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  I'd like to add two more: 1. Installing everything from source (normally I don't mind compiling, but large packages can take an hour or two. Ironically, OS X doesn't need to support many different architectures, so there's no excuse for not having binary compatibility like Linux does). 2. It doesn't manage the entire system. The process for installing from a .dmg or from the app store is completely different from homebrew, and the two don't talk to each other well (or really at all). I want a single source to manage all of my executable files and their configurations, not a small handful that each manage part of it.

sjwright 14y ago

Sorry fsniper, but most of your criticisms are either factually wrong and/or based in ignorance. Not sure what you mean by common denominator shortcuts, but if you mean things like Quit/Cut/Paste/Print/Save/New/Undo then you're dead wrong. Exists, and largely unchanged for nearly 30 years. And they're highly consistent. If it's a menu command, it's the command key. Mac OS X does not lack a decent terminal emulator. You might have missed it, the program is called Terminal. You might be right about the package managers, but many people would disagree with you. There is no maximize button. You installed Firefox and Thunderbird, so what's the problem? Are you trolling now?

fsniper 14y ago
If you are thinking of only OsX world, yeah they have never changed for the last 30 or more years, but the world is not only osx. I'm not a single desktop user, I occasionally switch between boxes and only OsX makes my motor memory to fail. I'm sorry but I can't think of Terminal as a decent Terminal emulator. Not having a maximize button invalidates my criticism but brings another one of unfamiliar titlebar choices. I'm not trolling, I'm speaking of defaults.
- da_n 14y ago
  "I'm sorry but I can't think of Terminal as a decent Terminal emulator." Well I'm sorry but unless you explain exactly what the shortcomings are to stop it being 'decent' your comments are nothing more than trollish bigotry. You are just coming across as arrogant and ignorant.
  - fsniper 14y ago
    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4497397 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4497397
- sjwright 14y ago
  I can't think of top as a decent process monitor, but I don't blame debian for that.

DanBC 14y ago

Shift clicking the green bobble maximises (really maximises, apart from the unremovable Menu bar) the window. Not allowing the user to add this functionality (even if it's a hidden option in a config file somewhere) is sub optimal in my opinion. There are some great things about OSX but there are a few small but frustrating things too.

fsniper 14y ago
Thank you. This is a really helpful comment.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I switched from Windows and Linux to OSX. I found there were many things that I did not know, and had to learn. How do I rename a file in the GUI? (right click, select "get info", change the file name in the box, etc.) How do I do keyboard text navigation? Option (or alt)left or right arrow will move one word. Command left or right arrow will move to the beginning or end of a line. Adding shift will select the text. (etc etc.) How do I turn off the sound when I turn my machine on? (Don't turn the machine off, or use a third party software.) There's some things which can't be done. But, in the end, computers are tools, and people need to be comfortable with their tools. So use whatever fits your needs.
  - tymekpavel 14y ago
    "How do I rename a file in the GUI?" Click once to highlight the file and click again to rename it. No need to go into the "get info" menu. "How do I turn off the sound when I turn my machine on?" Mute the computer before shutting it down.
    - evgen 14y ago
      "the sound" that I think he wants to suppress is the startup chime, which can't be turned off because it serves a very specific hardware debugging purpose related to the boot process. There are hacks that can turn down the volume of the chime but it cannot be completely turned off.

CountSessine 14y ago

The experience is - in one word - disgusting Really? It lacks common denominator keyboard shortcuts and keyboard bindings No it doesn't. Emacs/bash key combos are everywhere. These are the oldest and most important key sequences in use on any computer. CTRL-A, CTRL-E, META-F, META-B, META-D, CTRL-K - and they pervade the Cocoa/Nextstep text engine. They're everywhere. It lacks sane default simple applications like a decent terminal emulator Really? Terminal is pretty awesome in some ways. For example, with the Gnome terminal app, when you resize the window, lines aren't readjusted for width and you end up either cropping lines or leaving a blank space to the right. Terminal seems to be one of the few terminal emulators that gets this right. Unfamiliar key bindings makes me think twice or thrice before typing I don't understand this. Doesn't this just mean that you haven't gotten used to it? How can I skip to end of line? CTRL-E, like I said. If you're an Emacs nut (and I am) you can even edit the file ~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict to make these key bindings work in ANY text field that uses an NSTextField object in ANY OSX application. There's even a global kill-ring. It's awesome. Clearly there were some real Emacs fans who worked on the original Nextstep text engine. switching to full height windows instead of full screen windows with the maximize button? Why on earth I would opt-in for loosing screen real estate It's a 'resize' button, not a maximize button. For many applications, especially those whose content is a fixed or maximum size (like web browsers), a maximize button with a large screen is just silly - you'd waste screen real estate with white or blank borders. What the 'resize' button does is and should be application-specific. For a web browser, it should resize the window to the size of the content. Ditto a word processor. For an IDE like XCode and Eclipse, it should maximize (and both of those do). This may be only me but, I hate OsX It sounds to me like you haven't put much energy into figuring it out and finding the best workflow - certainly not nearly as much energy as I've put into learning the esoterica behind Linux abominations like XKB and Gnome 3. And I would never say that Linux disgusts me - far from it. I think Linux is great.