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What if every city had a London Overground?
- bambax 1y agoI don't know about "every city", but Paris has both regular metros that are above ground (sometimes way above), and "tramways" that are trains running in the streets.
- prawn 1y agoI get a 403 Forbidden error trying to read Dwell from Australia the last week or so. Are they blocking everyone outside the US perhaps? Prior to this starting, I used to get some other temporary error for each subpage I loaded within a session. Geofenced caching issue maybe?
- doublerabbit 1y agoLoads fine here in the UK.
- jaza 1y agoWorks for me from Australia
- prawn 1y agoThanks. I might be collateral damage sharing an ISP/IP with someone questionable.
- beardyw 1y agoMany of the tube lines run above ground once outside the center. And I thought the Overground had gone and had been incorporated into the tube network fully when they renamed all the lines.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoYou thought wrong, the names are just a branding thing. The overground came under TfL management in 2007, before then it was silverlink. The routes had unofficial names (north London line, Watford dc, goblin etc), they’ve had swanky new names now and the old names weren’t used officially very much, but were on the most part obvious (goblin being the Gospel Oak to Barking LINe, the rest being more obvious)
- esnowrackley 1y ago> An underground train network is the pinnacle of public transport—right now, in New York and Chicago... people are being whisked through a network of tunnels, deep below the bustling city Chicago is almost entirely above ground. Very little of the network is below the city. Out of 224.1 miles of track, only 11.4 are underground (5%).[1] Only two out of the eight lines run that 11.4 miles and the majority of their time is spent on elevated tracks above street level. That said, a ring around the city would be great. The hub and spoke layout dramatically limits Chicagoans ability to get around. [1]: https://www.transitchicago.com/facts/ https://www.transitchicago.com/facts/
- teleforce 1y ago>a ring around the city would be great. It's so obvious that a ring around the city train is pinnacle of urban transport similar to London Circle line and Tokyo Yamanpte line, and every city and metropolis should has one of them.
- petepete 1y agoDespite its name, only 45% of London Underground is underground. As I recall only 3 or 4 lines are entirely subterranean, most run on the surface once they are out of the centre.
- incone123 1y agoImagine what London would be like with the majority of the lines in the centre being on elevated tracks instead of underground
- 9dev 1y agoA previously beautiful city, now ruined by train tracks everywhere?
- madaxe_again 1y agoYou’re 140 years too late.
- pimlottc 1y agoThis is a great success story, but I was really hoping the article would address the question in the title, that is, how can this be replicated in other cities? They mention repurposing existing underused lines, which certainly many cities have, but how did they manage to actually get the project off the ground?
- badc0ffee 1y agoThe initial network was built by tying underused lines into an existing Underground[1] line, the East London Line. Parts had to be upgraded, but the expensive bits were already done - there were existing stations, and existing, almost completely grade-separated, electrified double track. There were upgrades to platforms here and there, and some connecting track built, but basically what the Overground did largely was improve service patterns, frequency, wayfinding, and ticketing. I don't know if many other cities have this kind of infrastructure sitting around and not being used to its full potential. Philadelphia's SEPTA Regional Rail is probably one. Toronto's GO has the trackage and the stations, but hundreds of route km need to be electrified. [1] The ELL was a "subsurface" Underground line, like the District Line, Metropolitan Line, and others. Those lines use basically full size commuter trains, and have air conditioning. This is in contrast to deep-level tube lines like the Central Line and Bakerloo Line that have narrow trains with a round cross-section, in narrow tunnels.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoThe ELL was a tiny part compared to the NLL, Watford DC and Goblin and about the same size as the WLL. The thing which TfL broggght was sprucing up the trains, adding staff to the stations, increasing reliability if I think frequency, and branding it so people considered it “new”.
- tialaramex 1y agoBranding also underscores a thing that transit nerds would know but is not necessarily obvious to visitors or infrequent users - that these are just part of the same transit network and so there's no extra friction. You don't need a special ticket or whatever - an Overground train, just like London's Underground trains or buses or trams, obviously works with Oyster, it has the common fare system, if your journey involves a mix of modes that'll integrate smoothly and so on.
- masklinn 1y ago> in New York and Chicago, Paris and Berlin, Tokyo and Beijing, people are being whisked through a network of tunnels, deep below the bustling city. Paris’ RER is a mostly aboveground suburban rail network, it’s only underground when it reaches the city center. And it’s far from unique, that’s a common feature of commuter rail. And while the metro is mostly underground, about 20km (out of 245) is aboveground.
- SoftTalker 1y agoYes, building underground is vastly more expensive than surface or even elevated lines. You only do it when above-ground space is prohibitively limited like in a major urban center.
- eloisant 1y agoTokyo also have a vast network of "overground" trains: the JR lines (Yamanote, Chuo), but also Keio, Odakyu, Tobu... And that's not just commuter lines, the JR lines go through the city center. Honestly did the author visit any of the cities she's talking about? I don't see what's special about London here.
- lillecarl 1y agoIn Stockholm we were a bit late to the party and dug our tunnels bigger, our teeny wheeny network has about 50% above ground stations and most new development is underground since it's easier to DnD (drill and dynamite) through a neighborhood than getting people to move. Sadly we combine the worst of two worlds, in the summer the train takes on heat though radiation, but since track is tunneled they can't run AC which would heat up the tunnels (we haven't developed on/off switches in Sweden yet). We only have 65 miles of track compared to Londons 225 but ours is uniquely cool by being bedrock excavation instead of dig & cover.
- pierrelf 1y agoThe new trains have ac https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/sl/news/daerfoer-blir-resan-varm-trots-ac-450262 https://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/sl/news/daerfoer-blir-resan-va...
- phony-account 1y ago> The new trains have ac I’d question the effectiveness: I stood opposite a young guy who just clean fainted on one of the hottest days. He fell like an axed tree-trunk in the heat. After a few minutes he was fine again, but he’d slid on the floor straight into my bag from the alcohol store and broken my wine-bottle at around 4pm on a Saturday. Anyone who knows Sweden will understand who came out of the experience worse.
- renewiltord 1y agoI think in the US we can only do things that others don't. For example, all the best transit systems cost money but in the US transit activists advocate for every system to be free. In this way, we can innovate and solve problems in novel ways that others have already solved.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoPublic transport is free in Luxembourg, Malta, Belgrade, Tallin What exactly does the US do that others don’t?
- trinix912 1y agoSince when is public transport free in Malta? I was there in May and busses were 1.5 EUR per ride. Maybe for certain locals with the Tallinja card?
- hdgvhicv 1y agohttps://cities-today.com/malta-makes-most-public-transport-free/ https://cities-today.com/malta-makes-most-public-transport-f...
- throwaway553241 1y agoI think a big part of why the Overground is lively and revered is because it’s where more of the “real” London is (i.e. the full-time residents, of all classes, whose lives are very much anchored to where they live). The center in contrast is a hollowed out cultural wasteland. I’ve long felt that you can’t have the effects that make cities special without that physical compression at the center, that forces people and ideas to meet which otherwise would not have. So I abandoned London in that regard. But I’d be very happy for the Overground to prove me wrong!
- mgaunard 1y agoPeople tend to work in central and live in the suburbs. That's kind of the general thing for most cities. The overground connects suburbs to other suburbs, which realistically, isn't something people use or need nearly as much. A few overground lines are usable for a work commute though. There is a branch going to Liverpool Street, and the connection to the DLR can be convenient for Canary Wharf. Also if you leave very far, it might be your only option to take the overground to a better-connected area. But that usually means a one-hour commute which is stretching the limit of practicability.
- throwaway553241 1y ago> People tend to work in central and live in the suburbs. That's kind of the general thing for most cities. Sure, but this was also true before central London became what it is now, so it seems orthogonal to my point.
- iamacyborg 1y ago> The center in contrast is a hollowed out cultural wasteland. Sorry, what? Central London is still very much the epicentre of masses of cultural activity.
- throwaway553241 1y agoJust my opinion, whatever floats your boat. I lived in Zone 1 for 11 years until 5 years ago. Central London is simply too homogeneous for me because prices have driven away any space for experimentation and creativity, save a few carefully curated “cultural centers”. Other cities are much more fun now (even in the UK).
- jaza 1y agoInteresting! I didn't know about the London Overground, only visited London once (nearly 20 years ago). I like our trains here in Sydney for similar reasons. The lines are almost all aboveground, you get to see plenty of neighbourhoods and plenty of sunshine out the windows (you also get the full panoramic scenery when going over the harbour bridge). And they're double decker and have lots of seating, so there's not nearly as much shoulder jostling as on typical metro trains (although there is frequent squeezing past peoples' knees to get out of a window seat). Ironically, there is a brand new "metro" line here in Sydney (and they're building more metro lines), and many people prefer it - even though it has less seating, is often crowded, and is more underground - because it's faster and more reliable. Opposite of the situation in London. I guess the grass is always greener!
- dwd 1y agoSeeing an Underground, Overground sign triggers an instant memory. You don't even the "Wombling free" grafiti they often attract.
- mgaunard 1y agoThe quality of the travel experience on the tube highly depends on how old that specific line is. The northern line, which is arguably one of the most useful lines for many people, is just not pleasant at all. The air is stale and full of soot particles, and you wait in a small cramped station perfect for claustrophobia. The trains are narrow and not air-conditioned. The central, victoria and piccadilly lines aren't much better. The elizabeth or jubilee lines, newest of the bunch, offer comfort that is much more in line with the overground (wide and tall air-conditioned trains, large and well-ventilated stations). Myself, I just avoid taking the tube and cycle instead. It's usually faster anyway.
- pledg 1y agoThis is about the overground though..
- mgaunard 1y agoThe overground is nice because it is more comfortable than the underground. But it's newer, and as I said the newer underground lines offer a somewhat similar experience.
- heavenlyblue 1y agoWhile I think all overgorund trains have AC installed, this summer a lot of them either ran too low or not running at all, this is for Windrush line
- stavros 1y agoNot to mention that you need earplugs if you're traveling on the old lines. And I really hate blowing my nose afterwards and the snot coming out black.
- keyshapegeo99 1y agoYour point about air-conditioning is mistaken. The Jubilee line can be very unpleasant in the summer months as it is not air-conditioned. The Metropolitan line, by contrast (the oldest Tube line and first metro line in the world, serving as the concept's namesake) is now air-conditioned - as are quite a few other older lines. The Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Waterloo and City, and Central lines are all slated to receive air-conditioning within the next 5 years. (Although the inevitable delays in delivery will probably push this back a bit.) There are no plans to add it to the Jubilee line.
- socalgal2 1y agoAs a rider I prefer overground. but as a resident I hate them. I see people living next to the tracks, it’s horrible. I’ve been next to the tracks in hotels, it’s horrible. Tokyo has been working to move several lines underground. not quite the same because they weren’t elevated. but, once the buried the trains they turned the old track areas into parks, walking paths, biking paths, indie stores, etc. it’s great!
- asdff 1y agoThere is a huge difference between light rail and heavy rail in terms of surface noise I find. Light rail on modern track is pretty quiet.
- masklinn 1y agoWhen light rail can go through every 2 minutes during peak hours, the difference is largely academic.
- kingkawn 1y agoLight rail 70-80 dB Regular trains 85-100dB It’s a logarithmic scale, which would you rather live by?
- os2warpman 1y agoIn this scenario am I a railfan or neurotypical?
- kingkawn 1y agoI can’t be your therapist
- blibble 1y agooverground is heavy rail and the lines are heavily used by freight
- 1y ago
- rahimnathwani 1y agoLast year, 183 million passengers traveled on the Overground, averaging at 3.5 million people every week. This sentence makes name doubt any and all other numbers in the article.
- caseyohara 1y ago183M passengers / 52 weeks = 3.52M passengers per week, does it not?
- NoboruWataya 1y ago183M passengers would be approximately three times the population of the UK. I assume the correct statistic is that 183M journeys were made in a year, or 3.5M per week. But the number of unique passengers will be a lot lower.
- arp242 1y agoYou added the phrase "unique passenger" yourself. The article doesn't talk about that at all. It does use the phrase "passenger journeys" and "passenger numbers". While this sentence could perhaps be slightly better phrase, in context it's pretty obvious that it's talking about the number of journeys. All of this is a classic extremely pedantic and obnoxious cherry-picking.
- NoboruWataya 1y agoI was explaining the parent comment, not defending it. The sentence which was reproduced in that comment does not talk about "passenger journeys".
- onionisafruit 1y agoI choose to interpret this in Heraclitean terms, “No man ever steps on the same train twice, for it’s not the same train and he’s not the same man”
- sensanaty 1y ago
- milliams 1y ago> "It’s an example of how building transit creates regeneration of wealth, and boosts the economies of the areas it covers." I was surprised that Wolmar, a Brit, would use the term "transit", rather than "transport" or "transportation". I wonder if this was an editorial change, or him adjusting to his audience of an American magazine (though being interviewed by a Brit).
- HPsquared 1y agoWhen in Rome.
- nottorp 1y agoThey mean ... trams?
- jurebb 1y agoI think Swiss cities show an even better example of how to utilize (mostly) existing rail tracks to ogranize a suburban rail network. Zurich S-Bahn is a good example, with 32 lines and alot of double-decker trains. Fun fact: this S-Bahn system also features a 2-class setup
- giik 1y agoI came here to say the same. The Swiss system is actually far superior, in my experience and opinion.
- jleyank 1y agoOttawa is losing its shirt trying to get a tram line up and running. Maybe bad design or equipment, maybe too cold but dedicated bus lanes (as with Boston's silver line) would seem to have been way more sensible. Easier to plow and no switch sensitivity to cold and ice.
- chrisandchris 1y ago> We value your privacy [...]. we and our 1649 partner [...]. Ans then hiding the "decline all" button. No thanks.