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I understand the sentiment, and I can't control how fine of a distinction you're making. In fact, you could legitimately blame people like me for not going fur

I understand the sentiment, and I can't control how fine of a distinction you're making. In fact, you could legitimately blame people like me for not going further to stop the madness. In my particular case, that could cost me my job, which means losing health insurance for my family and myself. That's a choice I'm making, for sure. To that extent I'm culpable for this situation.

LadyCailin 1y ago
I’ve aleast applied some logic for all countries with shitty leaders. Russia, or Israel, or Gaza (Hamas) for instance. Who is responsible for the shittyness done by the governments of these countries? The governments, obviously. But when harm starts going to other nations, who is most responsible for stopping that? Surely the answer must be the citizens of that country? We can’t expect, say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, to be the morally responsible people and expect them to go in and stage a coup. If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. So, while it’s true that US citizens are not directly responsible for Trump, there is still a dereliction of ethical duty happening, in my opinion, assuming we agree that Trump is harming other people unnecessarily (which, naturally, many Trump supporters would disagree with.) Of course, even if I’m right, what does that mean in practice? That random Americans on vacation in Italy can be snatched up and sent to The Hague? No, obviously not. I think the most practical effect is that this should give all Americans pause to think, and to at minimum ensure that they are not contributing to the problem in any way, and better yet, fighting the problem in some way. Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that only 1/3 or so of Americans voted for Harris, which was the only choice that actually could have worked to stop Trump. 1/3 voted for him directly, and of course they are responsible, but another 1/3 couldn’t be bothered to vote, so it is actually a supermajority of the American people that are shitty, either because they couldn’t care less about other people, or they actively contributed to the problem.
- petralithic 1y ago
  Not everywhere is a democracy though. I'd hesitate to call even the US a democracy and therefore the government is independent of the will of the people.
  - xethos 1y ago
    For sure. When it's Bush, Obama, Reagan or Kennedy, America is the leader of the Free World and what every other nation should strive to be. When it's Trump the government doesn't accurately reflect the will of the people. /s Like sure, I get that the above is propaganda spread by the machine, but good luck telling that to the Europeans that have dealt with Americans that believe it; furthermore, I think it's telling that a decade ago, Canadians would wear emblems to distinguish themselves from Americans, lest they be confused for the egocentric and rude Americans. The first paragraph is propaganda, but Americans haven't exactly denied it, nor have they been humble about their place in the world, or the flaws in their nation. Their actions have instead left many of us of the opinion that Americans actually believe it.
    - arethuza 1y ago
      "nor have they been humble about their place in the world" To be fair - which country has ever been the most powerful in the world and humble about it. The UK certainly wasn't - and after more than a century still hasn't learned that it is no longer exceptional.
    - petralithic 1y ago
      The US hasn't been a real democracy since the beginning, due to first past the post. It has nothing to do with Trump, there have been much worse conditions in the past such as the Civil War. Many Americans do believe it of course, otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did.
  - LadyCailin 1y ago
    The specifics of the government don’t matter, insofar as the moral responsibility. A dictator by himself is powerless. He needs many people to prop up and enforce his regime. Of course, it matters a great deal in how the morally responsible people need to behave, and of course I feel more sympathy for people that stand up to Putin vs Trump, because the consequences for them are much more dire, but it doesn’t change the moral calculus.
- lostmsu 1y ago
  You took the words out of my mind (mouth would not be able to write so clearly). But here's a question: > If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. On an abstract level how are the citizens more responsible than random countries? Random countries and random citizens are in the same boat: they have to deal with something they had no simple choice over (at least in totalitarian states). Mind you I agree with the proposition, but the explanation is not satisfactory.

LadyCailin 1y ago

I’ve aleast applied some logic for all countries with shitty leaders. Russia, or Israel, or Gaza (Hamas) for instance. Who is responsible for the shittyness done by the governments of these countries? The governments, obviously. But when harm starts going to other nations, who is most responsible for stopping that? Surely the answer must be the citizens of that country? We can’t expect, say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, to be the morally responsible people and expect them to go in and stage a coup. If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. So, while it’s true that US citizens are not directly responsible for Trump, there is still a dereliction of ethical duty happening, in my opinion, assuming we agree that Trump is harming other people unnecessarily (which, naturally, many Trump supporters would disagree with.) Of course, even if I’m right, what does that mean in practice? That random Americans on vacation in Italy can be snatched up and sent to The Hague? No, obviously not. I think the most practical effect is that this should give all Americans pause to think, and to at minimum ensure that they are not contributing to the problem in any way, and better yet, fighting the problem in some way. Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that only 1/3 or so of Americans voted for Harris, which was the only choice that actually could have worked to stop Trump. 1/3 voted for him directly, and of course they are responsible, but another 1/3 couldn’t be bothered to vote, so it is actually a supermajority of the American people that are shitty, either because they couldn’t care less about other people, or they actively contributed to the problem.

petralithic 1y ago
Not everywhere is a democracy though. I'd hesitate to call even the US a democracy and therefore the government is independent of the will of the people.
- xethos 1y ago
  For sure. When it's Bush, Obama, Reagan or Kennedy, America is the leader of the Free World and what every other nation should strive to be. When it's Trump the government doesn't accurately reflect the will of the people. /s Like sure, I get that the above is propaganda spread by the machine, but good luck telling that to the Europeans that have dealt with Americans that believe it; furthermore, I think it's telling that a decade ago, Canadians would wear emblems to distinguish themselves from Americans, lest they be confused for the egocentric and rude Americans. The first paragraph is propaganda, but Americans haven't exactly denied it, nor have they been humble about their place in the world, or the flaws in their nation. Their actions have instead left many of us of the opinion that Americans actually believe it.
  - arethuza 1y ago
    "nor have they been humble about their place in the world" To be fair - which country has ever been the most powerful in the world and humble about it. The UK certainly wasn't - and after more than a century still hasn't learned that it is no longer exceptional.
  - petralithic 1y ago
    The US hasn't been a real democracy since the beginning, due to first past the post. It has nothing to do with Trump, there have been much worse conditions in the past such as the Civil War. Many Americans do believe it of course, otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did.
- LadyCailin 1y ago
  The specifics of the government don’t matter, insofar as the moral responsibility. A dictator by himself is powerless. He needs many people to prop up and enforce his regime. Of course, it matters a great deal in how the morally responsible people need to behave, and of course I feel more sympathy for people that stand up to Putin vs Trump, because the consequences for them are much more dire, but it doesn’t change the moral calculus.
lostmsu 1y ago
You took the words out of my mind (mouth would not be able to write so clearly). But here's a question: > If they do, maybe that’s fine, but they can’t be held culpable if they do nothing. The citizens however, must be, as there otherwise is no one else to stop the evil. Now, I include the US in this list too. On an abstract level how are the citizens more responsible than random countries? Random countries and random citizens are in the same boat: they have to deal with something they had no simple choice over (at least in totalitarian states). Mind you I agree with the proposition, but the explanation is not satisfactory.