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I also read this series of blog posts recently where the author, Hillel Wayne, talked to several "traditional" engineers that had made the switch to software. H

I also read this series of blog posts recently where the author, Hillel Wayne, talked to several "traditional" engineers that had made the switch to software. He came to a similar conclusion and while I was previously on the fence of how much of what software developers do could be considered engineering, it convinced me that software engineer is a valid title and that what we do is engineering. First post here: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/

3036e4 1y ago
I was an undergraduate (computer) engineer student, but like many of my friends at that time (dot-com boom) I did not graduate since it was too tempting to get a job and get well paid instead. However many, probably half, that I work with, and most that I worked with overall for the last 25+ years (since after I dropped out) have an engineering degree. Especially the younger ones, since this century it has been more focus on getting a degree and fewer seems to drop out early to get a job like many of us did in my days. So when American employers insist on giving me titles like "software engineer" I cringe. It's embarrassing really, since I am surrounded by so many that have a real engineering degree, and I don't. It's like if I dropped out of medical school and then people started calling me "doctor" even if I wasn't one, legally. It would be amazing if we could find a better word so that non-engineers like me are not confused with the legally real engineers.
- AndrewDavis 1y ago
  I've decided that titles are mostly meaningless in software. What X title means in one org means another in a different one with near zero overlap, and another title might have considerable overlap with a differently named one but viewed lowly, borderline pejoratively at another org. Eg system admin vs devops vs sre. In one org sysadmins are deploying desktop machines with no expectations they can cut code, in my old role as one I was working with Linux systems, building glue and orchestration, and when things go wrong debugging backend code written by a development team. Something far closer to the work of "devops" or "sre". As a aside, I find your example of doctor as amusing because it's overloaded with many considering the term a synonym of physician, and the confusion that can cause with other types of doctors.
- lukan 1y ago
  If you are doing the work of an engineer and you do it right, I believe you are an engineer, whether you graduated, or not. And proper software developement definitely has engineering parts. Otherwise titles are just labels.
wolvesechoes 1y ago
Personally I don't need to talk with "traditional" engineers to have an opinion there, as I am mechanical engineer that currently deals mostly with software, but still in the context of "traditional" engineering (models and simulation, controls design). Definitely making software can be engineering, most of the time it is not, not because of the nature of software, but the characteristics of the industry and culture that surrounds it, and argument in this article is not convincing (15 not very random engineers is not that much to support the argument from "family resemblance").
- gabrielpoca118 1y ago
  But what about other engineering fields? From what I understand, if you compare it to chemical engineering, you have many more similarities, because you’re doing Hypothesis -> Experiment -> Analyze -> Refine -> Repeat, which seems very similar to what we do in software
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Mechanical engineering also uses prototypes, iteration, lab testing etc. Building architects build multiple models before the first shovel is put into the ground. Software is clearly different than "hardware", but it doesn't mean that other industries do not use experiment and iteration.
    - gabrielpoca118 1y ago
      ok you lost me then xD I was trying to understand what you meant by it not being engineering most of the time.
      - ozim 1y ago
        I will add this link once more. This is the talk on real software engineering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhdlBHHimeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhdlBHHimeM
- 1y ago

3036e4 1y ago

I was an undergraduate (computer) engineer student, but like many of my friends at that time (dot-com boom) I did not graduate since it was too tempting to get a job and get well paid instead. However many, probably half, that I work with, and most that I worked with overall for the last 25+ years (since after I dropped out) have an engineering degree. Especially the younger ones, since this century it has been more focus on getting a degree and fewer seems to drop out early to get a job like many of us did in my days. So when American employers insist on giving me titles like "software engineer" I cringe. It's embarrassing really, since I am surrounded by so many that have a real engineering degree, and I don't. It's like if I dropped out of medical school and then people started calling me "doctor" even if I wasn't one, legally. It would be amazing if we could find a better word so that non-engineers like me are not confused with the legally real engineers.

AndrewDavis 1y ago
I've decided that titles are mostly meaningless in software. What X title means in one org means another in a different one with near zero overlap, and another title might have considerable overlap with a differently named one but viewed lowly, borderline pejoratively at another org. Eg system admin vs devops vs sre. In one org sysadmins are deploying desktop machines with no expectations they can cut code, in my old role as one I was working with Linux systems, building glue and orchestration, and when things go wrong debugging backend code written by a development team. Something far closer to the work of "devops" or "sre". As a aside, I find your example of doctor as amusing because it's overloaded with many considering the term a synonym of physician, and the confusion that can cause with other types of doctors.
lukan 1y ago
If you are doing the work of an engineer and you do it right, I believe you are an engineer, whether you graduated, or not. And proper software developement definitely has engineering parts. Otherwise titles are just labels.

wolvesechoes 1y ago

Personally I don't need to talk with "traditional" engineers to have an opinion there, as I am mechanical engineer that currently deals mostly with software, but still in the context of "traditional" engineering (models and simulation, controls design). Definitely making software can be engineering, most of the time it is not, not because of the nature of software, but the characteristics of the industry and culture that surrounds it, and argument in this article is not convincing (15 not very random engineers is not that much to support the argument from "family resemblance").

gabrielpoca118 1y ago
But what about other engineering fields? From what I understand, if you compare it to chemical engineering, you have many more similarities, because you’re doing Hypothesis -> Experiment -> Analyze -> Refine -> Repeat, which seems very similar to what we do in software
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Mechanical engineering also uses prototypes, iteration, lab testing etc. Building architects build multiple models before the first shovel is put into the ground. Software is clearly different than "hardware", but it doesn't mean that other industries do not use experiment and iteration.
  - gabrielpoca118 1y ago
    ok you lost me then xD I was trying to understand what you meant by it not being engineering most of the time.
    - ozim 1y ago
      I will add this link once more. This is the talk on real software engineering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhdlBHHimeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhdlBHHimeM
1y ago