4 ms·

Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project

49 points by mhga 1y ago

amanaplanacanal 1y ago
So evidently a two state solution is off the table, and once all the Palestinians are driven away, a one state solution will become acceptable to Israel. Is there some other way this could play out?
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  Weren’t all two state proposals in the past rejected by one Palestinian leader or the other?
  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
    Anyway the idea basically died on October 7.
    - EdwardDiego 1y ago
      It's been dead since Netanyahu became Prime Minister. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhelmingly-passes-motion-rejecting-palestinian-statehood-days-before-pms-us-trip/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhe...
      - nielsbot 1y ago
        And even before that.
      - tguvot 1y ago
        Netanyahu became PM in 1996. In his role as PM he signed follow up agreements to Oslo accords and handed over to PA control more parts west bank. As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead). Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
        jfengel 1y ago
        What does Netanyahu's version of a two-state solution look like? I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing? Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
        tguvot 1y ago
        same as was negotiated in all rounds, including clinton parameters. big settlement blocks go to israel, in land swaps (iirc like 3% or 5% of west bank). remote settlements are evacuated. PA demilitarized (as uk, france, canada, australia, etc say should be). school should stop teaching hate (unrwa teaching that one day they will come and will liberate entire israel since 50s. take a look at this the atlantic article from 1961 https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132561290.pdf https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132... ) bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen. this is lovely article that shows how obama killed all negotiations between israel and palestinians https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressure https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressur...
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - EdwardDiego 1y ago
    Only one Palestinian authority was recognized in the Oslo Accords as representing Palestine, and they've supported it since 1982. Which is why Israel funded Hamas to weaken the PLO. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
    - dlubarov 1y ago
      Israel never funded Hamas, you might be thinking of them facilitating Qatari aid funds.
      - nielsbot 1y ago
        Same difference
        tguvot 1y ago
        at some point of time there was serious fallout between PA west bank and Hamas in Gaza (you need to remember that Hamas was elected as majority party by elections in 2006 and later there was coup attempt by PLO sponsored by usa, that succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza). As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services. Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things". eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers. and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
        nujabe 1y ago
        You folks being disingenuous as usual. Israel did not facilitate the payments to Hamas because of some humanitarian concern for Gazans(lol), they did it specifically for the purpose of undermining the PA so Netanyahu could point to Hamas and say “see we have no partner for peace” which is exactly what he’s done. [1] He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2] It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-hamas-warnings-war-october-7-benjamin-netanyahu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-h...
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- nielsbot 1y ago
  I imagine it will play out similarly to the genocide of the Native Americans: Ethnically cleansed or genocided. Any stragglers will live on reservations or the equivalent. Palestinians living under Israeli control will be subject to apartheid a la the Jim Crow South in the US. I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    Long-term Palestinian refugee camps are/were essentially urban reservations. Some have existed for decades and look kind of like cities. They are/were really, really small areas with very high density. Sort of like a concentration camp too.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  If you think about it, a "two state solution" results in the a continuation of de facto apartheid. Israel controls identity cards, vehicle registration, and the civil registry of births and deaths. There's basically no way for Palestinians to have a complete and independent country at this point, and this is a shame and a crime that was intended. The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
Group_B 1y ago
[flagged]
- nwhnwh 1y ago
  As if the US is expected to be good here? The region is important if you want to control the world.
- AuthAuth 1y ago
  Geopolitics doesnt change because someone was mean. Its all about power and influence. Isreal is key for enacting and protecting American interests in the region. Whats happening in Palestine hurts in the short term but I think average people will forget about it in a year and the US foreign policy will be business as usual. Its brutal to think about but I cant see it going any other way, most of the people upset by whats going on had never heard about gaza before oct 7th.
  - nujabe 1y ago
    There is absolutely nothing critical to US national security that Israel can provide the United States. When you say “protecting American interests” what you really mean is protecting Israeli interests. America has no national security interest in Israeli settlement expansion in West Bank, Gaza & southern Syria. The intelligence Israel does provide the US is related to conflicts & terrorist groups that wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for Israel itself. Literally all the Middle East countries host US military bases and are puppet states of the US anyway so I don’t see how Israel provides any value. “Israel is an albatross around America’s neck” - John Mearsheimer https://youtu.be/dqeGW4G_Bmo?si=D5ZiURk4IzFRwiIN https://youtu.be/dqeGW4G_Bmo?si=D5ZiURk4IzFRwiIN
  - GOD_Over_Djinn 1y ago
    Israel provides America with nothing, that’s a tired old trope. Even conservatives recognize it: https://www.cato.org/commentary/israel-strategic-liability-united-states https://www.cato.org/commentary/israel-strategic-liability-u...
- nielsbot 1y ago
nielsbot 1y ago
> Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project Israel approves patently illegal West Bank settlement project

49 points by mhga 1y ago

So evidently a two state solution is off the table, and once all the Palestinians are driven away, a one state solution will become acceptable to Israel. Is there some other way this could play out?

SilverElfin 1y ago
Weren’t all two state proposals in the past rejected by one Palestinian leader or the other?
- FridayoLeary 1y ago
  Anyway the idea basically died on October 7.
  - EdwardDiego 1y ago
    It's been dead since Netanyahu became Prime Minister. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhelmingly-passes-motion-rejecting-palestinian-statehood-days-before-pms-us-trip/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhe...
    - nielsbot 1y ago
      And even before that.
    - tguvot 1y ago
      Netanyahu became PM in 1996. In his role as PM he signed follow up agreements to Oslo accords and handed over to PA control more parts west bank. As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead). Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
      - jfengel 1y ago
        What does Netanyahu's version of a two-state solution look like? I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing? Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
        tguvot 1y ago
        same as was negotiated in all rounds, including clinton parameters. big settlement blocks go to israel, in land swaps (iirc like 3% or 5% of west bank). remote settlements are evacuated. PA demilitarized (as uk, france, canada, australia, etc say should be). school should stop teaching hate (unrwa teaching that one day they will come and will liberate entire israel since 50s. take a look at this the atlantic article from 1961 https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132561290.pdf https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132... ) bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen. this is lovely article that shows how obama killed all negotiations between israel and palestinians https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressure https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressur...
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- EdwardDiego 1y ago
  Only one Palestinian authority was recognized in the Oslo Accords as representing Palestine, and they've supported it since 1982. Which is why Israel funded Hamas to weaken the PLO. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    Israel never funded Hamas, you might be thinking of them facilitating Qatari aid funds.
    - nielsbot 1y ago
      Same difference
      - tguvot 1y ago
        at some point of time there was serious fallout between PA west bank and Hamas in Gaza (you need to remember that Hamas was elected as majority party by elections in 2006 and later there was coup attempt by PLO sponsored by usa, that succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza). As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services. Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things". eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers. and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
        nujabe 1y ago
        You folks being disingenuous as usual. Israel did not facilitate the payments to Hamas because of some humanitarian concern for Gazans(lol), they did it specifically for the purpose of undermining the PA so Netanyahu could point to Hamas and say “see we have no partner for peace” which is exactly what he’s done. [1] He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2] It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-hamas-warnings-war-october-7-benjamin-netanyahu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-h...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
nielsbot 1y ago
I imagine it will play out similarly to the genocide of the Native Americans: Ethnically cleansed or genocided. Any stragglers will live on reservations or the equivalent. Palestinians living under Israeli control will be subject to apartheid a la the Jim Crow South in the US. I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Long-term Palestinian refugee camps are/were essentially urban reservations. Some have existed for decades and look kind of like cities. They are/were really, really small areas with very high density. Sort of like a concentration camp too.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
If you think about it, a "two state solution" results in the a continuation of de facto apartheid. Israel controls identity cards, vehicle registration, and the civil registry of births and deaths. There's basically no way for Palestinians to have a complete and independent country at this point, and this is a shame and a crime that was intended. The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

Group_B 1y ago

[flagged]

nwhnwh 1y ago
As if the US is expected to be good here? The region is important if you want to control the world.
AuthAuth 1y ago
Geopolitics doesnt change because someone was mean. Its all about power and influence. Isreal is key for enacting and protecting American interests in the region. Whats happening in Palestine hurts in the short term but I think average people will forget about it in a year and the US foreign policy will be business as usual. Its brutal to think about but I cant see it going any other way, most of the people upset by whats going on had never heard about gaza before oct 7th.
- nujabe 1y ago
  There is absolutely nothing critical to US national security that Israel can provide the United States. When you say “protecting American interests” what you really mean is protecting Israeli interests. America has no national security interest in Israeli settlement expansion in West Bank, Gaza & southern Syria. The intelligence Israel does provide the US is related to conflicts & terrorist groups that wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for Israel itself. Literally all the Middle East countries host US military bases and are puppet states of the US anyway so I don’t see how Israel provides any value. “Israel is an albatross around America’s neck” - John Mearsheimer https://youtu.be/dqeGW4G_Bmo?si=D5ZiURk4IzFRwiIN https://youtu.be/dqeGW4G_Bmo?si=D5ZiURk4IzFRwiIN
- GOD_Over_Djinn 1y ago
  Israel provides America with nothing, that’s a tired old trope. Even conservatives recognize it: https://www.cato.org/commentary/israel-strategic-liability-united-states https://www.cato.org/commentary/israel-strategic-liability-u...
nielsbot 1y ago

nielsbot 1y ago

> Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project Israel approves patently illegal West Bank settlement project