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From my memory of our history class in Canadian high school: Russia invaded Afghanistan -> U.S. armed Islamic fighters -> radical networks formed seemed to be t

by neom 1y ago

From my memory of our history class in Canadian high school: Russia invaded Afghanistan -> U.S. armed Islamic fighters -> radical networks formed seemed to be the genesis?

OutOfHere 1y ago
That's half of the picture. The radical networks didn't target the US just randomly or for nothing. It is specifically because of the US interference in the Middle East and its avid and persistent support for Israel that the US was targeted by Al-Qaeda.
- neom 1y ago
  I think that's true although I'm not an expert, my point was kinda just the straight line to Osama bin Laden who was a fighter during that earlier period and 9/11 but your additional context is appreciated. :)
potato3732842 1y ago
You don't get to the "radical islamists wage jihad on US dime" step without the "corrupt post-colonial governments leave citizens dissatisfied, citizens turn to religion" step.
- text0404 1y ago
  Who installed the corrupt post-colonial governments? Who destabilized middle eastern countries to create an opening for those governments to take power? Who funded the groups who ended up taking power? It's the same folks who invented the word for the phenomenon we're currently discussing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    >Who installed the corrupt post-colonial governments? Ugh, mostly the British and the French though I supposed Ike got conned into helping the Brits with one of them. >Who destabilized middle eastern countries to create an opening for those governments to take power? rofl, everyone, but mostly their neighbors >Who funded the groups who ended up taking power? Same answer as above. But I get it, reality is complex and "murka bad" is simple. If you want that narrative stick to latin america.
    - text0404 1y ago
      > But I get it, reality is complex and "murka bad" is simple. You just agreed that the Western world is largely behind the blowback, so why are you still dismissing it? Yeah, it's complex and largely predicated on the interests of the West, to the detriment of the citizens of the ME. Do you have something to add? Edit: I see you're editing your response to address the points in this post. I'll wait till you're done to respond again. > If you want that narrative stick to latin america. You're again agreeing with me but trying to make it seem like you're not? Yeah agreed, the history of Western intervention in Latin America is horrific. You should see what they've been doing in the Middle East!
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        I'm not agreeing with you any more than a middle-ish politician that gets endorsed by some hate group is agreeing with them. Your opinion here is overly broad and reductive to the point of being stupid and wrong. The nations of the middle east have fucked with each other more than anyone has fucked with them in the past 50yr, though of course they all seek and sometimes get outside aid when doing so. Bin Laden had a famous quote that translates to "the americans are bad and the shia are worse". I think that sums a typical local attitude up pretty well.
        neom 1y ago
        Don't do personal attacks on HN, calling things stupid and wrong in this context is mean spirited. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
lenerdenator 1y ago
Countries back radical groups all the time. The "reasons" for Al Qaeda turning back on the US were: 1) support for the existence of Israel: just the idea of it, not necessarily the finer points, like whether it should coexist with an Arab Palestinian state. Zionism, whether it meant only taking up part of what was Mandatory Palestine, or all of it, flew directly in the face of the idea of pan-Arabism and Islamic theocratic chauvinism. 2) the Saudi royal family's request that the US-led coalition defend Saudi Arabia during the Persian Gulf War - that was something that Usama bin Laden really hated, as he thought that it should be on the Saudis themselves and Islam as a whole to defend its birthplace, not some Western power.

by neom 1y ago

From my memory of our history class in Canadian high school: Russia invaded Afghanistan -> U.S. armed Islamic fighters -> radical networks formed seemed to be the genesis?

OutOfHere 1y ago

That's half of the picture. The radical networks didn't target the US just randomly or for nothing. It is specifically because of the US interference in the Middle East and its avid and persistent support for Israel that the US was targeted by Al-Qaeda.

neom 1y ago
I think that's true although I'm not an expert, my point was kinda just the straight line to Osama bin Laden who was a fighter during that earlier period and 9/11 but your additional context is appreciated. :)

potato3732842 1y ago

You don't get to the "radical islamists wage jihad on US dime" step without the "corrupt post-colonial governments leave citizens dissatisfied, citizens turn to religion" step.

text0404 1y ago
Who installed the corrupt post-colonial governments? Who destabilized middle eastern countries to create an opening for those governments to take power? Who funded the groups who ended up taking power? It's the same folks who invented the word for the phenomenon we're currently discussing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)
- potato3732842 1y ago
  >Who installed the corrupt post-colonial governments? Ugh, mostly the British and the French though I supposed Ike got conned into helping the Brits with one of them. >Who destabilized middle eastern countries to create an opening for those governments to take power? rofl, everyone, but mostly their neighbors >Who funded the groups who ended up taking power? Same answer as above. But I get it, reality is complex and "murka bad" is simple. If you want that narrative stick to latin america.
  - text0404 1y ago
    > But I get it, reality is complex and "murka bad" is simple. You just agreed that the Western world is largely behind the blowback, so why are you still dismissing it? Yeah, it's complex and largely predicated on the interests of the West, to the detriment of the citizens of the ME. Do you have something to add? Edit: I see you're editing your response to address the points in this post. I'll wait till you're done to respond again. > If you want that narrative stick to latin america. You're again agreeing with me but trying to make it seem like you're not? Yeah agreed, the history of Western intervention in Latin America is horrific. You should see what they've been doing in the Middle East!
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      I'm not agreeing with you any more than a middle-ish politician that gets endorsed by some hate group is agreeing with them. Your opinion here is overly broad and reductive to the point of being stupid and wrong. The nations of the middle east have fucked with each other more than anyone has fucked with them in the past 50yr, though of course they all seek and sometimes get outside aid when doing so. Bin Laden had a famous quote that translates to "the americans are bad and the shia are worse". I think that sums a typical local attitude up pretty well.
      - neom 1y ago
        Don't do personal attacks on HN, calling things stupid and wrong in this context is mean spirited. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

lenerdenator 1y ago

Countries back radical groups all the time. The "reasons" for Al Qaeda turning back on the US were: 1) support for the existence of Israel: just the idea of it, not necessarily the finer points, like whether it should coexist with an Arab Palestinian state. Zionism, whether it meant only taking up part of what was Mandatory Palestine, or all of it, flew directly in the face of the idea of pan-Arabism and Islamic theocratic chauvinism. 2) the Saudi royal family's request that the US-led coalition defend Saudi Arabia during the Persian Gulf War - that was something that Usama bin Laden really hated, as he thought that it should be on the Saudis themselves and Islam as a whole to defend its birthplace, not some Western power.