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This is bad, and the erosion of rights at the border is a serious issue of liberty in our modern age, but in many powerful ways the US is still ahead of many We

This is bad, and the erosion of rights at the border is a serious issue of liberty in our modern age, but in many powerful ways the US is still ahead of many Western countries in terms of rights at the border, for both citizens and noncitizens. For example, in New Zealand, you can be fined $5000 if you do not unlock your phone at the border, and later still compelled to unlock it. The US does not have any fines or laws to compel access. Of course, in any country, refusing the orders of a customs official will get you banned from the country, so that's a strong enough incentive for most tourists. In terms of frequency: New Zealand searches 671 devices per year on 3M tourists, the US searches 46k/yr on 72M tourists, Australia 8.3k/yr on 6M tourists. That works out to 671/3M tourists is 0.02%, 46k/72M tourists is 0.06% and 8.3k/6M tourists is 0.14%. Personally, I have fought against these searches for nearly my entire life. But to pretend that the US is on some sort of unique authoritarian slide is laughable. In the UK, today, most forms of protest are illegal. The EU has mandated cellular devices which record your car's location - on every new car. We should stand united against authoritarianism worldwide, not divided and pointing and laughing at each other in some sort of sad petty tribalism. I don't want to score cheap points on the internet, I want all people worldwide to enjoy liberty and privacy. United we stand, divided we fall.

text0404 1y ago
The idea is to prevent us from hitting rock bottom wrt rights by addressing abuses as they occur, not years down the line when we finally realize we no longer have rights or recourse.
ethin 1y ago
The problem is that customs officials (and immigration officers) are granted an extreme amount of power through discretionary authority. Congress has yet to actually constrain this, and from my understanding the statutory language is so broad that determinations can be made based on literally anything. Which is why that hole "abolish ICE" got quite popular (and in many places is still around). Congress and the courts are way too deferential when it comes to these two, instead of holding them up to an incredibly high standard and giving the courts that level of discretion, which is where it belongs.
OutOfHere 1y ago
NZ is absurd because given large numbers, someone could have genuinely forgotten their password from a night of heavy drinking, or from a password change that wasn't jotted down.
isr 1y ago
The reason why other members of the core white-anglo-saxon empire, Canada, UK, Aus, NZ have draconian surveillance systems is because it's the only way the US can "legally" hoover up a lot of this data as it's own constitution gets in the way. A small island state in the south Pacific, close only to Aus & Antartic penguins, doesn't need or care about your data. An outpost of the wasp empire, without constitutional impediments getting the way, ABSOLUTELY DOES want to hoover up as much data that passes through it as possible. Which do you think NZ is? "5 eyes" has the membership it has, for a reason. So yes, as the centre of this unholy empire, the US is involved, and responsible.
- owenversteeg 1y ago
  That is an inaccurate summary of the Five Eyes program / intelligence disclosures. Almost all of the bulk+targeted surveillance of US citizens was carried out by the NSA directly - they have the biggest budget, the most power and brains. Not to mention, at the time of the leaks, datacenters were generally quite centralized in the US. The sharing of non-US-citizen data, of course, was (and almost certainly still is) rampant. But sharing of US citizen data was mostly from specific operations, not ongoing programs. I would be happy to be corrected if there is a leak that I have not heard of. This is not to justify any part of modern surveillance, which I have protested against for many years. Nor is it to dodge US responsibility. Back to the topic we're discussing - border phone searches - the US surveils their own citizens far less than the other Anglo countries. 22% of the searches were of US citizens, while US citizens make up a bit over half of border crossings. Australian citizens make up a similar proportion of Australian border crossings, but 42% of searches were of Australian citizens. Combine that with the figures above, and an Australian citizen going home has about a 4x higher chance of getting their phone searched than an American citizen. Very roughly, 0.025% vs 0.11%.
  - isr 1y ago
    > Almost all of the bulk+targeted surveillance of US citizens was carried out by the NSA directly If you believe that, then you probably inhabit a parallel universe where Epstein wasn't an Israeli asset, and where he really did kill himself. In which case, keep calm & carry on...
sapphicsnail 1y ago
Who's pointing and laughing? I don't see people in the US laughing at other countries becoming worse and I don't understand how pointing out that that the US is becoming more authoritarian leads to tribalism. Are you talking about countries outside the US?
- owenversteeg 1y ago
  When something like this happens in the US, the general European internet response is to shake their heads about how the US is becoming literal Nazis and Europe is superior (one example: the current most popular comment chain in this thread.) When something like Chat Control, mandatory cellular location recording devices in cars, anti-encryption laws, elimination of the right to protest in the UK, etc happens, the American response is to shake their heads and do much the same. I don't find that productive. That sort of division is toxic. And the broader strategy - provoking us to hate our brothers across the Atlantic - has long been a core strategy of the enemies of Western civilization.
leptons 1y ago
>But to pretend that the US is on some sort of unique authoritarian slide is laughable. It is, but maybe you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Device scanning at the border is not the only indication of this, there are many. Masked federal agents arresting anyone they want without any warrant and then sending them to prisons in foreign countries without due process, should be ringing authoritarian alarm bells for everyone, including you.

text0404 1y ago

The idea is to prevent us from hitting rock bottom wrt rights by addressing abuses as they occur, not years down the line when we finally realize we no longer have rights or recourse.

ethin 1y ago

The problem is that customs officials (and immigration officers) are granted an extreme amount of power through discretionary authority. Congress has yet to actually constrain this, and from my understanding the statutory language is so broad that determinations can be made based on literally anything. Which is why that hole "abolish ICE" got quite popular (and in many places is still around). Congress and the courts are way too deferential when it comes to these two, instead of holding them up to an incredibly high standard and giving the courts that level of discretion, which is where it belongs.

OutOfHere 1y ago

NZ is absurd because given large numbers, someone could have genuinely forgotten their password from a night of heavy drinking, or from a password change that wasn't jotted down.

isr 1y ago

The reason why other members of the core white-anglo-saxon empire, Canada, UK, Aus, NZ have draconian surveillance systems is because it's the only way the US can "legally" hoover up a lot of this data as it's own constitution gets in the way. A small island state in the south Pacific, close only to Aus & Antartic penguins, doesn't need or care about your data. An outpost of the wasp empire, without constitutional impediments getting the way, ABSOLUTELY DOES want to hoover up as much data that passes through it as possible. Which do you think NZ is? "5 eyes" has the membership it has, for a reason. So yes, as the centre of this unholy empire, the US is involved, and responsible.

owenversteeg 1y ago
That is an inaccurate summary of the Five Eyes program / intelligence disclosures. Almost all of the bulk+targeted surveillance of US citizens was carried out by the NSA directly - they have the biggest budget, the most power and brains. Not to mention, at the time of the leaks, datacenters were generally quite centralized in the US. The sharing of non-US-citizen data, of course, was (and almost certainly still is) rampant. But sharing of US citizen data was mostly from specific operations, not ongoing programs. I would be happy to be corrected if there is a leak that I have not heard of. This is not to justify any part of modern surveillance, which I have protested against for many years. Nor is it to dodge US responsibility. Back to the topic we're discussing - border phone searches - the US surveils their own citizens far less than the other Anglo countries. 22% of the searches were of US citizens, while US citizens make up a bit over half of border crossings. Australian citizens make up a similar proportion of Australian border crossings, but 42% of searches were of Australian citizens. Combine that with the figures above, and an Australian citizen going home has about a 4x higher chance of getting their phone searched than an American citizen. Very roughly, 0.025% vs 0.11%.
- isr 1y ago
  > Almost all of the bulk+targeted surveillance of US citizens was carried out by the NSA directly If you believe that, then you probably inhabit a parallel universe where Epstein wasn't an Israeli asset, and where he really did kill himself. In which case, keep calm & carry on...

sapphicsnail 1y ago

Who's pointing and laughing? I don't see people in the US laughing at other countries becoming worse and I don't understand how pointing out that that the US is becoming more authoritarian leads to tribalism. Are you talking about countries outside the US?

owenversteeg 1y ago
When something like this happens in the US, the general European internet response is to shake their heads about how the US is becoming literal Nazis and Europe is superior (one example: the current most popular comment chain in this thread.) When something like Chat Control, mandatory cellular location recording devices in cars, anti-encryption laws, elimination of the right to protest in the UK, etc happens, the American response is to shake their heads and do much the same. I don't find that productive. That sort of division is toxic. And the broader strategy - provoking us to hate our brothers across the Atlantic - has long been a core strategy of the enemies of Western civilization.

leptons 1y ago

>But to pretend that the US is on some sort of unique authoritarian slide is laughable. It is, but maybe you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Device scanning at the border is not the only indication of this, there are many. Masked federal agents arresting anyone they want without any warrant and then sending them to prisons in foreign countries without due process, should be ringing authoritarian alarm bells for everyone, including you.