4 ms·

> So much freedom. About half of Americans apparently don't have a passport and according to other sources I found only about <30% of Americans have travelled

> So much freedom. About half of Americans apparently don't have a passport and according to other sources I found only about <30% of Americans have travelled internationally in the past year. So I imagine this revocation of freedom doesn't affect everyone equally. Presumably things are still mostly fine for those folks or at least they wouldn't have experienced it.

alistairSH 1y ago
2/3 of the US population lives within the border zone (defined as within 100 miles of any border or entry point). Likewise, every major city is basically one giant border zone. So, you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. How are you going to prove you're a citizen? There is no national ID, passports aren't required nor are they held by the majority of citizens, and unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers.
- filoleg 1y ago
  > [...] unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers. I agree with your larger overall point, but this specific part isn't true. Nothing has changed recently, but green card holders/permanents residents (over the age of 18) have been required to carry their green card with them since a long time ago (since the implementation of the Alien Registration Act of 1940, according to Google). I remember back when I got mine in 2012, it was a requirement as well (though, I will admit, it was not really enforced). Here is the relevant quote from Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.)[0] addressing this: > Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. And here[1] is an additional resource confirming this. 0. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1304&num=0&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prel... 1. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car...
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    Huh, that's interesting... certainly nobody I know with a green card (myself and my family included prior to 1997) ever carried it daily. They were generally kept in the "important papers" box/safe with passports and things.
    - filoleg 1y ago
      Ayup, literally same. I know mom carried for a bit, but then decided that she was running a higher risk of losing it that way, and did the same thing you did. It was not really enforced in recent times, but we knew that it was technically still required on paper.
- smcin 1y ago
  > you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. That's terrible advice, please stop giving terrible advice like that. ICE need to have probable cause (about you specifically, by name, not just your street or zipcode or "people of your ethnicity/appearance" or "people in that store/restaurant/parking lot"), beyond a verbal "uhh we think you're here illegally". You have the right to ask them why. And the 4th Amdt still exists, for all people, so no they can't stop you in your vehicle or inside your own house without probable cause and a [signed, valid] warrant [naming you specifically, and signed by a judge]. > How are you going to prove you're a citizen? If you're a citizen, you can simply state to them you're a citizen (better when you're on bodycam; and repeat it (on bodycam) to any other ICE officials you interact with, and make mental note of their names or else descriptions so you can subsequently identify them). Pragmatically, you could also identify yourself as such to any bystanders or anyone videoing things. "U.S. citizens do not have to carry proof of citizenship if they are in the U.S." [0] Read that again and again. Ok? For sure ICE could knowingly violate a citizen's rights, detain them unlawfully (for hours or days), beat them up, send them to a detention center, even (in very rare cases) deport them. That becomes a political as much as legal matter. If you have constitutional/legal rights and due-process but refuse to stand up for them, do those rights functionally cease to exist? Do they magically get restored in 2029(/2033)? Time to stop being complacent. (Obviously noncitizens do not have all the above protections, and need to be more careful.) In the meantime, to inform yourself about your rights, and to get advice how to deal with ICE, both for citizens, GC holders, visa holders, visitors and undocumented people, see: https://www.aclu.org/ https://www.aclu.org/ or other webinars. But, stop speculating or spreading misinformation. If you don't know, ask here. [0]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights
  - SwamyM 1y ago
    > That's terrible advice, please stop giving terrible advice like that. ICE need to have probable cause (about you specifically, by name, not just your street or zipcode or "people of your ethnicity/appearance" or "people in that store/restaurant/parking lot"), beyond a verbal "uhh we think you're here illegally". You have the right to ask them why. And the 4th Amdt still exists, for all people, so no they can't stop you in your vehicle or inside your own house without probable cause and a [signed, valid] warrant [naming you specifically, and signed by a judge]. This is technically true but in practice (as we've seen multiple times recently), if ICE wants to stop you or interrogate you or even arrest you, they will do so without a warrant.
text0404 1y ago
> So I imagine this revocation of freedom doesn't affect everyone equally. Presumably things are still mostly fine for those folks or at least they wouldn't have experienced it. Sure, and most Americans have never had their speech censored by a government entity so getting rid of the first amendment would be fine for most people.
rconti 1y ago
| only about <30% of Americans have travelled internationally in the past year 30% sounds insanely high. I suspect at least half of Americans haven't even taken a _vacation_ in the past year, let alone _travelled internationally_.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Yeah, the number is closer to 10%: > Approximately 40 million Americans travel abroad each year. This figure represents about 12% of the U.S. population. Travel data reveals that Americans commonly visit destinations in Europe, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean. Source: https://travelpander.com/how-many-americans-travel-abroad/ https://travelpander.com/how-many-americans-travel-abroad/
  - rconti 1y ago
    Higher than I would have thought! I was just thinking about this again and my SWAG was 5%. I asked ChatGPT which repeated the shockingly high 28% number, but it elides the fact that this was in a (small) survey of 2000 "travelers" (whatever that means-- but i suspect it means 2000 people who travelled in the past year): > In the past year, the poll of 2,000 U.S. travelers, conducted by Talker Research, found 94% have traveled domestically, and 28% have traveled internationally. source: https://www.myjournalcourier.com/features/article/unpacking-global-travel-anxieties-americans-20773115.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.myjournalcourier.com/features/article/unpacking-...
- splap 1y ago
  only 3% of us citizens had a passport back in 1989! passport to resident ratio usa, 1989-2023: https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/44102530-5b24-467a-8510-ce93c4adb87e https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/44102530-5b24-467a-8510-c...
wat10000 1y ago
If we've learned anything from the catastrophes of the 20th century, it should be that you need to resist attacks on freedom even when they only involve smaller groups, because they will come for you eventually and by then it may be too late.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  That's hard to do in practice when at any given moment the people screeching about a given affront are the same people who were cheering AML/KYC a decade ago because they didn't like tax evasion and the people screeching about that were all in favor of invasive policing over drugs a decade before that and so on and so on.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    Resisting tyranny is hard, who knew.
abeppu 1y ago
... that's not how freedom works? Even if I happen not to hold any particularly radical political opinions, if political speech is censored, my rights of free expression are also decreased. I may not practice a minority religion, but if the state systemically attacks one religion, my freedom of religion is also attacked. The same is no less true for the 4th amendment; I may not be a target of the police at the current moment, but if they have the ability to search and take stuff at will, I am still less free.

alistairSH 1y ago

2/3 of the US population lives within the border zone (defined as within 100 miles of any border or entry point). Likewise, every major city is basically one giant border zone. So, you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. How are you going to prove you're a citizen? There is no national ID, passports aren't required nor are they held by the majority of citizens, and unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers.

filoleg 1y ago
> [...] unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers. I agree with your larger overall point, but this specific part isn't true. Nothing has changed recently, but green card holders/permanents residents (over the age of 18) have been required to carry their green card with them since a long time ago (since the implementation of the Alien Registration Act of 1940, according to Google). I remember back when I got mine in 2012, it was a requirement as well (though, I will admit, it was not really enforced). Here is the relevant quote from Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.)[0] addressing this: > Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. And here[1] is an additional resource confirming this. 0. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1304&num=0&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prel... 1. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car...
- alistairSH 1y ago
  Huh, that's interesting... certainly nobody I know with a green card (myself and my family included prior to 1997) ever carried it daily. They were generally kept in the "important papers" box/safe with passports and things.
  - filoleg 1y ago
    Ayup, literally same. I know mom carried for a bit, but then decided that she was running a higher risk of losing it that way, and did the same thing you did. It was not really enforced in recent times, but we knew that it was technically still required on paper.
smcin 1y ago
> you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. That's terrible advice, please stop giving terrible advice like that. ICE need to have probable cause (about you specifically, by name, not just your street or zipcode or "people of your ethnicity/appearance" or "people in that store/restaurant/parking lot"), beyond a verbal "uhh we think you're here illegally". You have the right to ask them why. And the 4th Amdt still exists, for all people, so no they can't stop you in your vehicle or inside your own house without probable cause and a [signed, valid] warrant [naming you specifically, and signed by a judge]. > How are you going to prove you're a citizen? If you're a citizen, you can simply state to them you're a citizen (better when you're on bodycam; and repeat it (on bodycam) to any other ICE officials you interact with, and make mental note of their names or else descriptions so you can subsequently identify them). Pragmatically, you could also identify yourself as such to any bystanders or anyone videoing things. "U.S. citizens do not have to carry proof of citizenship if they are in the U.S." [0] Read that again and again. Ok? For sure ICE could knowingly violate a citizen's rights, detain them unlawfully (for hours or days), beat them up, send them to a detention center, even (in very rare cases) deport them. That becomes a political as much as legal matter. If you have constitutional/legal rights and due-process but refuse to stand up for them, do those rights functionally cease to exist? Do they magically get restored in 2029(/2033)? Time to stop being complacent. (Obviously noncitizens do not have all the above protections, and need to be more careful.) In the meantime, to inform yourself about your rights, and to get advice how to deal with ICE, both for citizens, GC holders, visa holders, visitors and undocumented people, see: https://www.aclu.org/ https://www.aclu.org/ or other webinars. But, stop speculating or spreading misinformation. If you don't know, ask here. [0]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/immigrants-rights
- SwamyM 1y ago
  > That's terrible advice, please stop giving terrible advice like that. ICE need to have probable cause (about you specifically, by name, not just your street or zipcode or "people of your ethnicity/appearance" or "people in that store/restaurant/parking lot"), beyond a verbal "uhh we think you're here illegally". You have the right to ask them why. And the 4th Amdt still exists, for all people, so no they can't stop you in your vehicle or inside your own house without probable cause and a [signed, valid] warrant [naming you specifically, and signed by a judge]. This is technically true but in practice (as we've seen multiple times recently), if ICE wants to stop you or interrogate you or even arrest you, they will do so without a warrant.

text0404 1y ago

> So I imagine this revocation of freedom doesn't affect everyone equally. Presumably things are still mostly fine for those folks or at least they wouldn't have experienced it. Sure, and most Americans have never had their speech censored by a government entity so getting rid of the first amendment would be fine for most people.

rconti 1y ago

| only about <30% of Americans have travelled internationally in the past year 30% sounds insanely high. I suspect at least half of Americans haven't even taken a _vacation_ in the past year, let alone _travelled internationally_.

FireBeyond 1y ago
Yeah, the number is closer to 10%: > Approximately 40 million Americans travel abroad each year. This figure represents about 12% of the U.S. population. Travel data reveals that Americans commonly visit destinations in Europe, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean. Source: https://travelpander.com/how-many-americans-travel-abroad/ https://travelpander.com/how-many-americans-travel-abroad/
- rconti 1y ago
  Higher than I would have thought! I was just thinking about this again and my SWAG was 5%. I asked ChatGPT which repeated the shockingly high 28% number, but it elides the fact that this was in a (small) survey of 2000 "travelers" (whatever that means-- but i suspect it means 2000 people who travelled in the past year): > In the past year, the poll of 2,000 U.S. travelers, conducted by Talker Research, found 94% have traveled domestically, and 28% have traveled internationally. source: https://www.myjournalcourier.com/features/article/unpacking-global-travel-anxieties-americans-20773115.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.myjournalcourier.com/features/article/unpacking-...
splap 1y ago
only 3% of us citizens had a passport back in 1989! passport to resident ratio usa, 1989-2023: https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/44102530-5b24-467a-8510-ce93c4adb87e https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/44102530-5b24-467a-8510-c...

wat10000 1y ago

If we've learned anything from the catastrophes of the 20th century, it should be that you need to resist attacks on freedom even when they only involve smaller groups, because they will come for you eventually and by then it may be too late.

potato3732842 1y ago
That's hard to do in practice when at any given moment the people screeching about a given affront are the same people who were cheering AML/KYC a decade ago because they didn't like tax evasion and the people screeching about that were all in favor of invasive policing over drugs a decade before that and so on and so on.
- wat10000 1y ago
  Resisting tyranny is hard, who knew.

abeppu 1y ago

... that's not how freedom works? Even if I happen not to hold any particularly radical political opinions, if political speech is censored, my rights of free expression are also decreased. I may not practice a minority religion, but if the state systemically attacks one religion, my freedom of religion is also attacked. The same is no less true for the 4th amendment; I may not be a target of the police at the current moment, but if they have the ability to search and take stuff at will, I am still less free.