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> When people talk about "human exceptionalism," they're referring to this type of "exceptional." Yeah, ok. I think it should be clear by now that people use

> When people talk about "human exceptionalism," they're referring to this type of "exceptional." Yeah, ok. I think it should be clear by now that people use the word "exceptional" in different ways, and it's not really clear just from the use of the word which of these ways it is. For me, "exceptional" just means "different", but you seem to be suggesting that people use it in the sense of "better", or something like that. Maybe that's true in some cases, but I would also say that humans are exceptionally destructive, and even in some ways exceptionally evil, in the sense that some people seem to take pleasure in causing harm, which is a feature that isn't shared with many other animals - or at least it's difficult to make the case that this is shared with many other animals. So "exceptional" doesn't mean "better" to me. Let's try to be objective about things: dolphins are exceptional in their sonar abilities, curiosity, complexity of social organisation for a marine animal, range of sonic vibrations they emit, and so on. We can similarly evaluate the complexity of human behaviours according to objective criteria: our range of vocalizations is objectively more complex than any other species (we could get into the details of this if you like: I think the informational entropy of average human behavioural outputs can easily be shown to be higher than the highest way you have of evaluating non-human vacalisations or behavioural outputs), the comeplxity of human tool use can also be objectively quantified: New Caledonian crows, dolphins, or chimpanzees have technological assemblages which consists of maximally two or three moving parts (let me know if you know of exceptions), while human ones often consist of thousands. We're really comparing one large rock, a nut, and a hammer rock, against a nuclear reactor. It just should be abundantly clear that there's an exception here. About your ethical point that "exceptionalism" translates into "divine right", I draw the opposite conclusion. Human exceptionalism doesn't mean that we can just do whatever we want, it means that with our increased abilities and awareness comes increased responsibility: we can become aware of the harms we cause to other life and other humans exactly because we're more capable and more preceptive

scott_w 1y ago
> For me, "exceptional" just means "different", but you seem to be suggesting that people use it in the sense of "better", or something like that. I’ve already explained why this is the only real definition you can take: because otherwise “exceptionalism” doesn’t create a new meaning, it’s just a synonym for “different,” which means “human exceptionalism” would mean literally nothing. I know I’m banging on about this definition but I think it’s a really important thing to keep in mind. To be clear, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to point out humans are better at doing things than animals. That’s an objective fact at this point in time. My point is that this doesn’t make us “different” to other animals any more than any animal is different to another animal! This piece of human exceptionalism is what I object to. If you want a simpler way of putting it, we can take Douglas Adams’s quote: Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.
- Jensson 1y ago
  So why do you think it is fine for the Dolphins to say they are more intelligent but not fine for Man to say they are more intelligent? You are saying us humans should stop saying that, why? > To be clear, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to point out humans are better at doing things than animals. That’s an objective fact at this point in time. My point is that this doesn’t make us “different” to other animals any more than any animal is different to another animal! This piece of human exceptionalism is what I object to. Many animals play around all day like Dolphins do, but Humans is the only animal that acts anywhere close to the way Humans do, learning to build new things over generations and doing things like going to space. No animal species has managed to go to space, that makes humanity more exceptional than any animal species. Many animals swim around in the ocean and eat fish, but only one have made spaceships, air planes, cars, computers etc. Another way to see it is how much would earth change if the species didn't exist. Remove humans and the face of the earth massively changes. Remove dolphins and earth would hardly change at all. Humans have exceptional impact, and thus can be said to be exceptional.
  - scott_w 1y ago
    > So why do you think it is fine for the Dolphins to say they are more intelligent but not fine for Man to say they are more intelligent? You are saying us humans should stop saying that, why I didn’t say that and neither does Douglas Adams. I’m not even sure how you came to that conclusion. Your entire second paragraph misses my point. > Another way to see it is how much would earth change if the species didn't exist. Remove humans and the face of the earth massively changes. Remove dolphins and earth would hardly change at all. Humans have exceptional impact, and thus can be said to be exceptional. Remove bees and many environmentalists think we’ll see ecological collapse. I guess bees are exceptional by that definition.

scott_w 1y ago

> For me, "exceptional" just means "different", but you seem to be suggesting that people use it in the sense of "better", or something like that. I’ve already explained why this is the only real definition you can take: because otherwise “exceptionalism” doesn’t create a new meaning, it’s just a synonym for “different,” which means “human exceptionalism” would mean literally nothing. I know I’m banging on about this definition but I think it’s a really important thing to keep in mind. To be clear, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to point out humans are better at doing things than animals. That’s an objective fact at this point in time. My point is that this doesn’t make us “different” to other animals any more than any animal is different to another animal! This piece of human exceptionalism is what I object to. If you want a simpler way of putting it, we can take Douglas Adams’s quote: Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Jensson 1y ago
So why do you think it is fine for the Dolphins to say they are more intelligent but not fine for Man to say they are more intelligent? You are saying us humans should stop saying that, why? > To be clear, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to point out humans are better at doing things than animals. That’s an objective fact at this point in time. My point is that this doesn’t make us “different” to other animals any more than any animal is different to another animal! This piece of human exceptionalism is what I object to. Many animals play around all day like Dolphins do, but Humans is the only animal that acts anywhere close to the way Humans do, learning to build new things over generations and doing things like going to space. No animal species has managed to go to space, that makes humanity more exceptional than any animal species. Many animals swim around in the ocean and eat fish, but only one have made spaceships, air planes, cars, computers etc. Another way to see it is how much would earth change if the species didn't exist. Remove humans and the face of the earth massively changes. Remove dolphins and earth would hardly change at all. Humans have exceptional impact, and thus can be said to be exceptional.
- scott_w 1y ago
  > So why do you think it is fine for the Dolphins to say they are more intelligent but not fine for Man to say they are more intelligent? You are saying us humans should stop saying that, why I didn’t say that and neither does Douglas Adams. I’m not even sure how you came to that conclusion. Your entire second paragraph misses my point. > Another way to see it is how much would earth change if the species didn't exist. Remove humans and the face of the earth massively changes. Remove dolphins and earth would hardly change at all. Humans have exceptional impact, and thus can be said to be exceptional. Remove bees and many environmentalists think we’ll see ecological collapse. I guess bees are exceptional by that definition.