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Phone searches at the US border hit a record high

97 points by mikece 1y ago

jacquesm 1y ago
So much freedom. It is scary to see how fast the USA is falling. But at least we now have an answer to how this all could have happened in Germany, why they didn't stop the builders of the concentration camps and how come the 'good Germans' did nothing. The price is a little steep though. The most surprising thing to me is that people that are by most measures intelligent are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
- dmitrygr 1y ago
  This is not new and started under obama. Courts have ruled that until you pass customs you are not IN the country and thus 4th amendment does not apply. IF you are a citizen, it STILL DOES apply so they cannot force you into a search or deny you entry but they can confiscate your device.
  - NoGravitas 1y ago
    And it would have started before Obama if smartphones were a common thing back then.
    - dmitrygr 1y ago
      100%. No government has ever skipped an opportunity to grab more control. My message was in no way partisan, just historical.
- oldpersonintx2 1y ago
  [dead]
- indoordin0saur 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - selectodude 1y ago
    Mike Godwin agrees that we’re witnessing Nazi shit.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  > So much freedom. About half of Americans apparently don't have a passport and according to other sources I found only about <30% of Americans have travelled internationally in the past year. So I imagine this revocation of freedom doesn't affect everyone equally. Presumably things are still mostly fine for those folks or at least they wouldn't have experienced it.
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    2/3 of the US population lives within the border zone (defined as within 100 miles of any border or entry point). Likewise, every major city is basically one giant border zone. So, you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. How are you going to prove you're a citizen? There is no national ID, passports aren't required nor are they held by the majority of citizens, and unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers.
    - filoleg 1y ago
      > [...] unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers. I agree with your larger overall point, but this specific part isn't true. Nothing has changed recently, but green card holders/permanents residents (over the age of 18) have been required to carry their green card with them since a long time ago (since the implementation of the Alien Registration Act of 1940, according to Google). I remember back when I got mine in 2012, it was a requirement as well (though, I will admit, it was not really enforced). Here is the relevant quote from Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.)[0] addressing this: > Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. And here[1] is an additional resource confirming this. 0. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1304&num=0&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prel... 1. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car...
- chrisco255 1y ago
  The Federal government has always had broad lateral regulatory powers over the influx and outflux of people and goods across the border, citizens or not. The U.S. has had laws on the book to this effect all the way back to 1789. This is one of the defining features of a sovereign country. There's not a single country on planet earth that doesn't permit searches at the border. See for yourself: https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1855&context=ilj https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Thank you for entirely missing the point here and illustrating mine by being one of those good people that keep on justifying what is happening by pointing to legal texts. In what world do you think it is normal for border patrol to search private devices? I've crossed in and out of former East Germany and Poland when they were still behind the iron curtain and never ever had to so much as show what I had in my pockets. By the time countries like that were examples to be held up to countries that nominally value personal freedom, freedom of expression and freedom from political and religious persecution you have to wonder if you are not in the words of Mitchell and Webb 'the baddies'.
    - chrisco255 1y ago
      > I've crossed in and out of former East Germany and Poland when they were still behind the iron curtain and never ever had to so much as show what I had in my pockets. I know there were exceptions for Yugoslavians and others but in general, for especially USSR citizens and Western German citizens, the flow of people across the iron curtain was incredibly regulated and especially soviets trying to flee east Germany were regularly executed. So please spare me your diatribe. The guards, if they chose to at any time, could have detained you and questioned you. The police could have searched you at any time anywhere in the USSR whether you were a citizen or not. In Russia this is still the case to this day. Of course all sovereign countries, whether "bad or not" reserve the right to search anything you seek to drag into their borders. This goes without saying! No country is under an obligation to host you, you are a guest. And no country has to subject itself to sabotage, political incitement, criminal activity, foreign lobbying, espionage, etc, from foreigners. Period. You don't have a right to import anything in to any country without it being potentially searched. That is called border control. Every country does it to some extent, some more thoroughly than others.
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  Try entering Australia sometime and report back. The ABF are empowered to search any electronic devices, copy and retain its contents. You can refuse, after which they are empowered to jail you and seize your belongings. Sorry but I'm not seeing the connection between searching belongings whilst crossing an international border to the mass genocide of 6M people.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    > You can refuse, after which they are empowered to jail you and seize your belongings. Or you can vote with your feet and stop going there. > Sorry but I'm not seeing the connection between searching belongings whilst crossing an international border to the mass genocide of 6M people. Nazism did not start with genocide. It ended with genocide. If your position is that as long as we haven't seen the death of 6M people then sure, you're right this isn't Nazism. But if you see the endless propaganda, the creations of large 'outgroups' and the building of actual concentration camps as possibly leading in that direction then now would be a good time to do something about it. Otherwise you'll be in a long line of people saying 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' in a couple of years. But you did.
- tempodox 1y ago
  > The price is a little steep though. Sadly that's usual for learning such things first hand.
Havoc 1y ago
Between this, the forced social media disclosure, the alleged entry denials for memes and the detaining of people I'm just not going to go to travel to the USA anymore. For that level of risk I'd rather go see Shenzhen frankly.
- ljf 1y ago
  A friend asked me to visit them in the states, there is no way I’m going currently - hopefully at some point in the future. I’ve had fun there in the past under Republican administrations - so this isn’t a blue/red thing - it just doesn’t appear safe to cross the boarder right now. Land of the free?
- mumbisChungo 1y ago
  Yes, it was a sad moment, years ago now, the day I realized that I'd likely never travel to China. Sadder still to acknowledge I'd feel safer doing so than entering the modern US.
- lostlogin 1y ago
  I wonder if US tourism is down. We avoided it for travel due to the current situation.
  - selectodude 1y ago
    Massively, yes.
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    So far, there isn't enough data to say. Forecasts apparently still show an increase in international visitors overall (unsure of the split between tourists and business visits). But, May numbers appear to be down about 7% compared to May 2024.
  - dboreham 1y ago
    Anecdotally it is, but I wondered if I could find supporting statistics. I live near Yellowstone NP which has a fair proportion of non-US visitors based on my personal observations (perhaps 25%). Stats are collected on a monthly basis. July is the most recent month with full data (obviously). Report URL below. The report says the visit count (MAU?) in July is down 18% vs last year. Since I can't think of any local issue (fire, flood, weather...) that would have had an affect on visitor count this year vs last, that seems quite a large change. Especially when the fact that only a proportion of visitors are not from the US. https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/Park%20Specific%20Reports/Monthly%20Public%20Use?Park=YELL https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/Park%20Specific%20Rep...
alistairSH 1y ago
The article doesn't say, but I wonder how many of those searches were truly at a border? For those unaware, the US defines the border as anyplace within 100 miles of a border, where international airpots are considered "the border" in addition to the actual physical border. This means something like 2/3 of US residents live "at the border" and are subject to border policies. It also means just about the entirety of every major city is also completely within the border region, even a city like Denver that is nowhere close to an actual border.
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  I'm pretty sure the 100 miles only really applies to the border and the coast and not internal ports of entries. It's still a travesty.
  - jdlshore 1y ago
    Shame you’ve been downvoted. According to the ACLU, you’re correct: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone
    - owenversteeg 1y ago
      Out of curiosity I tried to find where in the US _wouldn't_ be considered a border zone if that was the case. Looks like the largest strip is from Death Valley to Idaho - when you get further north there are too many regional airports with the occasional flight to Canada, or you run into the actual "border zone." The real trick is to find the furthest East point, which I think might (?) exist near Elkins, WV? Fingers crossed I'll nerd snipe someone here into finding it.
      - alistairSH 1y ago
        And here's the 100-mile zone... https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alliancesandiego/pages/2887/attachments/original/1583965474/NBV_Border_Map.jpg https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alliancesandiego/pages... Non-coastal cities that fall within the zone where I wouldn't really expect a border check (ignoring the big cities Houston)... Charlottesville, VA Sacramento, CA Portland, OR Madison, WI Syracuse, NY
owenversteeg 1y ago
This is bad, and the erosion of rights at the border is a serious issue of liberty in our modern age, but in many powerful ways the US is still ahead of many Western countries in terms of rights at the border, for both citizens and noncitizens. For example, in New Zealand, you can be fined $5000 if you do not unlock your phone at the border, and later still compelled to unlock it. The US does not have any fines or laws to compel access. Of course, in any country, refusing the orders of a customs official will get you banned from the country, so that's a strong enough incentive for most tourists. In terms of frequency: New Zealand searches 671 devices per year on 3M tourists, the US searches 46k/yr on 72M tourists, Australia 8.3k/yr on 6M tourists. That works out to 671/3M tourists is 0.02%, 46k/72M tourists is 0.06% and 8.3k/6M tourists is 0.14%. Personally, I have fought against these searches for nearly my entire life. But to pretend that the US is on some sort of unique authoritarian slide is laughable. In the UK, today, most forms of protest are illegal. The EU has mandated cellular devices which record your car's location - on every new car. We should stand united against authoritarianism worldwide, not divided and pointing and laughing at each other in some sort of sad petty tribalism. I don't want to score cheap points on the internet, I want all people worldwide to enjoy liberty and privacy. United we stand, divided we fall.
- text0404 1y ago
  The idea is to prevent us from hitting rock bottom wrt rights by addressing abuses as they occur, not years down the line when we finally realize we no longer have rights or recourse.
- ethin 1y ago
  The problem is that customs officials (and immigration officers) are granted an extreme amount of power through discretionary authority. Congress has yet to actually constrain this, and from my understanding the statutory language is so broad that determinations can be made based on literally anything. Which is why that hole "abolish ICE" got quite popular (and in many places is still around). Congress and the courts are way too deferential when it comes to these two, instead of holding them up to an incredibly high standard and giving the courts that level of discretion, which is where it belongs.
- 1y ago
ethin 1y ago
As a citizen of the US I hate how SCOTUS has ground the fourth amendment down to practically nothing. It's absurd how people want the constitution to only apply to citizens, when IMO what makes the US unique is that it's constitution and the rights it grants are assumed to already exist for everyone, and all it does is acknowledge and respect them and order the government to do likewise. I very much doubt this will change anytime soon. At this point I'd be all for just abolishing the DHS and everything under it -- I don't think the DHS has, since it's inception, actually done anything that protects the homeland in any capacity. I could be wrong, but if it has actually done something, it's so inconsequential that nobody talks about it.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  Pretty much the basis for the DHS was 9/11 and terrorism, but terrorism exists in the first place due to US support for Israel and unnecessary interference in the Middle East. I don't particularly like the Islamic nations one bit, but even I see the connection of pointless US foreign policies to terrorism. Moreover, Israel is in large part militarily capable of defending itself. As such, the argument for DHS was all very circular. If you take away the circles, there's nothing left. A country that so hates its own constitutional democracy cannot possibly support the democracy of other nations.
  - ethin 1y ago
    This. I will continue maintaining the opinion that the US needs to just stop supporting Israel. Seriously. Israel can fight it's own religious wars and I see no reason for us to be backing that when our very constitution says "Hey, no endorsing any religion!" If I remember right, Israel has only been able to do half the things it's done with respect to wars because we've just kept giving them weapons and supplies in the first place.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    > terrorism exists in the first place due to US support for Israel and unnecessary interference in the Middle East. I'm no fan of being Israel's sugar daddy but that's a gross mis-characterization of the situation. The terrorism landscape of the 80s through 2010s has to do with the cold war, the post-colonial governments of the middle east, etc, etc. It's not a simple problem. But yeah we should def stop supporting Israel. Not our sandbox, not our problem.
lawlessone 1y ago
It's has always been happening, especially for people of some backgrounds. Now it's just happening more.
- LgLasagnaModel 1y ago
  More of a bad thing is worse than less of a bad thing, right?
mrtksn 1y ago
I wonder what people these days think about the song "Imagine" by John Lennon. Free travel, world peace and equality is so out of fashion that a strong majority seems to think that it is OK to restrict people's movement around the world and feel so terrified of foreigners and yet without seeing the irony the same people would talk about becoming interplanetary species. I wouldn't be surprised if the totalitarians drop the "think of the children" line and just doi everything for "national security". I'm not fan of the trend, I'm open about it I despise travel restrictions and the security theater but I really want to hear from people who like the new way the world is headed for.
- lastofthemojito 1y ago
  I mean, of course, we all would like to be able to travel without restrictions ourselves. The concern for people in developed nations is what would happen to their quality of life if people from poorer nations could freely migrate. Europe has ~750 million people, and even with current policies (where migrants might drown when their boat sinks while the Greek Coast Guard looks on and laughs) millions of migrants try to enter Europe each year. The US has ~340 million people, and even with current policies (where children might be separated from parents and placed into cruel detention centers) millions of migrants try to enter the US each year. If movement was free, how many hundreds of millions would pour from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and South Asia into Europe and the US? The 3+ billion who live in the tropics are only going to become more likely to try to migrate as the climate continues to warm.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    What makes you think that everyone wants to come to Europe? Have you considered that instead of geofencing the non-millionaire population like cattle, maybe not bombing or couping the poor countries is a better option? People don't actually leave the places they grow up or their families and friends to live on European food stamps. Also, Europe tends to receive the worst people because the legal routes are closed. We end up with people who dare to go to the illegal routes for other reasons than running for their lives. US a similar thing, instead of relying on illegal workforce just let in people from the main gates and watch out for shady types. There are so many things that can be done to address the issues instead of dividing the world limited travel areas.
OutOfHere 1y ago
Does using GrapheneOS guard against such searches? Also, what is the future of GrapheneOS given that Google's release of the source code for Pixel's kernel was dropped, replaced with a generic image.
- _vere 1y ago
  To a degree. You have the duress pin, so you can wipe your phone quickly if need be. But I wouldn't call that guarding, your phone won't get searched but if TSA or ice saw you wipe your phone in front of them with a, to them, unknown feature, I doubt they'll let you enter the country.
sitzkrieg 1y ago
time to start mailing the phone home. lol what a joke
- mrweasel 1y ago
  I've been debating one how to get a work laptop into the US safely. Last time, earlier this year, I didn't really have any worries, nor was I searched, nor where my devices. While I still believe the risk is close to zero, I have been designing a solution for my laptop. There's not really anything on my laptop, other than SSH keys and some stuff that's in git anyway. So it can technically just be a clean Linux installation on a old burner laptop. When I'm across the border, I could simply install my password manager and pull everything from git. For the phone that's a little more tricky, because I'd need my 2FA for the password manager. I suppose I could do a "blank" phone and just have the TOTP QR code printed on a piece of paper. It just seems like it's more suspicious to carry two blank devices.
ryan_j_naughton 1y ago
Anyone have a link to get around the paywall?
- 201984 1y ago
  Install this and you'll never need a bypass link again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_Paywalls_Clean https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_Paywalls_Clean
- 27153 1y ago
  https://archive.ph/cx5HQ https://archive.ph/cx5HQ
- encom 1y ago
  I use the flag button. Posting paywalled content is dumb, annoying and pointless.
righthand 1y ago
Our country is too dumb to read crime stats. Of course we would make everyone the enemy regardless of what the constitution and stats say. Do your part and educate an idiot you know. Ask them to stop being unreasonable and stop spreading lies or you will cut them off. This will probably result in you cutting them off. We cannot sink into total FUD!
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  > Ask them to stop being unreasonable and stop spreading lies or you will cut them off. This is often how families of cult members act when they discover their family member has joined a cult. Usually it has the effect of pushing the cult member to become further indoctrinated because the cult is the only thing in their life that offers them acceptance and validation. Instead, talk to them using their terms and get them to understand your world view in their terms. Some people will still be obstinate and I do not have a solution for that; I am, however, certain that invalidating them is not a solution, even if one believes that what they are saying is not valid. The point is that people need to feel safe in order to change their opinions (doing so is a very vulnerable moment) and constantly invalidating someone is a great way to make sure they constantly feel psychologically unsafe around you. Just to reiterate: if one is really hoping to change the mind of someone close to them, don't give them an ultimatum to change their mind or you'll cut them off. The result will be that they don't change their mind and you remove yourself from a good position to effect that change.
  - righthand 1y ago
    Does that work if the cult violations become more and more normalized? If the cult believes to ignore anyone that disagrees, how do you break through? Crime has gone down over the decades and people are still screaming their heads off at it at every level. How do you embrace cult think about spreading insecurity? How can you argue on their terms when their terms aren’t even remotely accurate?
general1726 1y ago
I have always considered crossing the US border as a training for backup recovery from catastrophic failure. Wiping my phone and laptop clean has shown me where I have gaps in backup recovery.

97 points by mikece 1y ago

So much freedom. It is scary to see how fast the USA is falling. But at least we now have an answer to how this all could have happened in Germany, why they didn't stop the builders of the concentration camps and how come the 'good Germans' did nothing. The price is a little steep though. The most surprising thing to me is that people that are by most measures intelligent are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.

dmitrygr 1y ago
This is not new and started under obama. Courts have ruled that until you pass customs you are not IN the country and thus 4th amendment does not apply. IF you are a citizen, it STILL DOES apply so they cannot force you into a search or deny you entry but they can confiscate your device.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  And it would have started before Obama if smartphones were a common thing back then.
  - dmitrygr 1y ago
    100%. No government has ever skipped an opportunity to grab more control. My message was in no way partisan, just historical.
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]
indoordin0saur 1y ago
[flagged]
- selectodude 1y ago
  Mike Godwin agrees that we’re witnessing Nazi shit.
barbazoo 1y ago
> So much freedom. About half of Americans apparently don't have a passport and according to other sources I found only about <30% of Americans have travelled internationally in the past year. So I imagine this revocation of freedom doesn't affect everyone equally. Presumably things are still mostly fine for those folks or at least they wouldn't have experienced it.
- alistairSH 1y ago
  2/3 of the US population lives within the border zone (defined as within 100 miles of any border or entry point). Likewise, every major city is basically one giant border zone. So, you could conceivably be a citizen, but CBP/ICE think you might be here illegally, so they can stop you without a warrant. How are you going to prove you're a citizen? There is no national ID, passports aren't required nor are they held by the majority of citizens, and unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers.
  - filoleg 1y ago
    > [...] unless something has changed, green card holders / permanent residents aren't required to carry their papers. I agree with your larger overall point, but this specific part isn't true. Nothing has changed recently, but green card holders/permanents residents (over the age of 18) have been required to carry their green card with them since a long time ago (since the implementation of the Alien Registration Act of 1940, according to Google). I remember back when I got mine in 2012, it was a requirement as well (though, I will admit, it was not really enforced). Here is the relevant quote from Section 264(e) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.)[0] addressing this: > Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. And here[1] is an additional resource confirming this. 0. https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1304&num=0&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prel... 1. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car...
chrisco255 1y ago
The Federal government has always had broad lateral regulatory powers over the influx and outflux of people and goods across the border, citizens or not. The U.S. has had laws on the book to this effect all the way back to 1789. This is one of the defining features of a sovereign country. There's not a single country on planet earth that doesn't permit searches at the border. See for yourself: https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1855&context=ilj https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Thank you for entirely missing the point here and illustrating mine by being one of those good people that keep on justifying what is happening by pointing to legal texts. In what world do you think it is normal for border patrol to search private devices? I've crossed in and out of former East Germany and Poland when they were still behind the iron curtain and never ever had to so much as show what I had in my pockets. By the time countries like that were examples to be held up to countries that nominally value personal freedom, freedom of expression and freedom from political and religious persecution you have to wonder if you are not in the words of Mitchell and Webb 'the baddies'.
  - chrisco255 1y ago
    > I've crossed in and out of former East Germany and Poland when they were still behind the iron curtain and never ever had to so much as show what I had in my pockets. I know there were exceptions for Yugoslavians and others but in general, for especially USSR citizens and Western German citizens, the flow of people across the iron curtain was incredibly regulated and especially soviets trying to flee east Germany were regularly executed. So please spare me your diatribe. The guards, if they chose to at any time, could have detained you and questioned you. The police could have searched you at any time anywhere in the USSR whether you were a citizen or not. In Russia this is still the case to this day. Of course all sovereign countries, whether "bad or not" reserve the right to search anything you seek to drag into their borders. This goes without saying! No country is under an obligation to host you, you are a guest. And no country has to subject itself to sabotage, political incitement, criminal activity, foreign lobbying, espionage, etc, from foreigners. Period. You don't have a right to import anything in to any country without it being potentially searched. That is called border control. Every country does it to some extent, some more thoroughly than others.
sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
Try entering Australia sometime and report back. The ABF are empowered to search any electronic devices, copy and retain its contents. You can refuse, after which they are empowered to jail you and seize your belongings. Sorry but I'm not seeing the connection between searching belongings whilst crossing an international border to the mass genocide of 6M people.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > You can refuse, after which they are empowered to jail you and seize your belongings. Or you can vote with your feet and stop going there. > Sorry but I'm not seeing the connection between searching belongings whilst crossing an international border to the mass genocide of 6M people. Nazism did not start with genocide. It ended with genocide. If your position is that as long as we haven't seen the death of 6M people then sure, you're right this isn't Nazism. But if you see the endless propaganda, the creations of large 'outgroups' and the building of actual concentration camps as possibly leading in that direction then now would be a good time to do something about it. Otherwise you'll be in a long line of people saying 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' in a couple of years. But you did.
tempodox 1y ago
> The price is a little steep though. Sadly that's usual for learning such things first hand.

Havoc 1y ago

Between this, the forced social media disclosure, the alleged entry denials for memes and the detaining of people I'm just not going to go to travel to the USA anymore. For that level of risk I'd rather go see Shenzhen frankly.

ljf 1y ago
A friend asked me to visit them in the states, there is no way I’m going currently - hopefully at some point in the future. I’ve had fun there in the past under Republican administrations - so this isn’t a blue/red thing - it just doesn’t appear safe to cross the boarder right now. Land of the free?
mumbisChungo 1y ago
Yes, it was a sad moment, years ago now, the day I realized that I'd likely never travel to China. Sadder still to acknowledge I'd feel safer doing so than entering the modern US.
lostlogin 1y ago
I wonder if US tourism is down. We avoided it for travel due to the current situation.
- selectodude 1y ago
  Massively, yes.
- alistairSH 1y ago
  So far, there isn't enough data to say. Forecasts apparently still show an increase in international visitors overall (unsure of the split between tourists and business visits). But, May numbers appear to be down about 7% compared to May 2024.
- dboreham 1y ago
  Anecdotally it is, but I wondered if I could find supporting statistics. I live near Yellowstone NP which has a fair proportion of non-US visitors based on my personal observations (perhaps 25%). Stats are collected on a monthly basis. July is the most recent month with full data (obviously). Report URL below. The report says the visit count (MAU?) in July is down 18% vs last year. Since I can't think of any local issue (fire, flood, weather...) that would have had an affect on visitor count this year vs last, that seems quite a large change. Especially when the fact that only a proportion of visitors are not from the US. https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/Park%20Specific%20Reports/Monthly%20Public%20Use?Park=YELL https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/Park%20Specific%20Rep...

alistairSH 1y ago

The article doesn't say, but I wonder how many of those searches were truly at a border? For those unaware, the US defines the border as anyplace within 100 miles of a border, where international airpots are considered "the border" in addition to the actual physical border. This means something like 2/3 of US residents live "at the border" and are subject to border policies. It also means just about the entirety of every major city is also completely within the border region, even a city like Denver that is nowhere close to an actual border.

throwawaymaths 1y ago
I'm pretty sure the 100 miles only really applies to the border and the coast and not internal ports of entries. It's still a travesty.
- jdlshore 1y ago
  Shame you’ve been downvoted. According to the ACLU, you’re correct: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone
  - owenversteeg 1y ago
    Out of curiosity I tried to find where in the US _wouldn't_ be considered a border zone if that was the case. Looks like the largest strip is from Death Valley to Idaho - when you get further north there are too many regional airports with the occasional flight to Canada, or you run into the actual "border zone." The real trick is to find the furthest East point, which I think might (?) exist near Elkins, WV? Fingers crossed I'll nerd snipe someone here into finding it.
    - alistairSH 1y ago
      And here's the 100-mile zone... https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alliancesandiego/pages/2887/attachments/original/1583965474/NBV_Border_Map.jpg https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alliancesandiego/pages... Non-coastal cities that fall within the zone where I wouldn't really expect a border check (ignoring the big cities Houston)... Charlottesville, VA Sacramento, CA Portland, OR Madison, WI Syracuse, NY

owenversteeg 1y ago

This is bad, and the erosion of rights at the border is a serious issue of liberty in our modern age, but in many powerful ways the US is still ahead of many Western countries in terms of rights at the border, for both citizens and noncitizens. For example, in New Zealand, you can be fined $5000 if you do not unlock your phone at the border, and later still compelled to unlock it. The US does not have any fines or laws to compel access. Of course, in any country, refusing the orders of a customs official will get you banned from the country, so that's a strong enough incentive for most tourists. In terms of frequency: New Zealand searches 671 devices per year on 3M tourists, the US searches 46k/yr on 72M tourists, Australia 8.3k/yr on 6M tourists. That works out to 671/3M tourists is 0.02%, 46k/72M tourists is 0.06% and 8.3k/6M tourists is 0.14%. Personally, I have fought against these searches for nearly my entire life. But to pretend that the US is on some sort of unique authoritarian slide is laughable. In the UK, today, most forms of protest are illegal. The EU has mandated cellular devices which record your car's location - on every new car. We should stand united against authoritarianism worldwide, not divided and pointing and laughing at each other in some sort of sad petty tribalism. I don't want to score cheap points on the internet, I want all people worldwide to enjoy liberty and privacy. United we stand, divided we fall.

text0404 1y ago
The idea is to prevent us from hitting rock bottom wrt rights by addressing abuses as they occur, not years down the line when we finally realize we no longer have rights or recourse.
ethin 1y ago
The problem is that customs officials (and immigration officers) are granted an extreme amount of power through discretionary authority. Congress has yet to actually constrain this, and from my understanding the statutory language is so broad that determinations can be made based on literally anything. Which is why that hole "abolish ICE" got quite popular (and in many places is still around). Congress and the courts are way too deferential when it comes to these two, instead of holding them up to an incredibly high standard and giving the courts that level of discretion, which is where it belongs.
1y ago

ethin 1y ago

As a citizen of the US I hate how SCOTUS has ground the fourth amendment down to practically nothing. It's absurd how people want the constitution to only apply to citizens, when IMO what makes the US unique is that it's constitution and the rights it grants are assumed to already exist for everyone, and all it does is acknowledge and respect them and order the government to do likewise. I very much doubt this will change anytime soon. At this point I'd be all for just abolishing the DHS and everything under it -- I don't think the DHS has, since it's inception, actually done anything that protects the homeland in any capacity. I could be wrong, but if it has actually done something, it's so inconsequential that nobody talks about it.

OutOfHere 1y ago
Pretty much the basis for the DHS was 9/11 and terrorism, but terrorism exists in the first place due to US support for Israel and unnecessary interference in the Middle East. I don't particularly like the Islamic nations one bit, but even I see the connection of pointless US foreign policies to terrorism. Moreover, Israel is in large part militarily capable of defending itself. As such, the argument for DHS was all very circular. If you take away the circles, there's nothing left. A country that so hates its own constitutional democracy cannot possibly support the democracy of other nations.
- ethin 1y ago
  This. I will continue maintaining the opinion that the US needs to just stop supporting Israel. Seriously. Israel can fight it's own religious wars and I see no reason for us to be backing that when our very constitution says "Hey, no endorsing any religion!" If I remember right, Israel has only been able to do half the things it's done with respect to wars because we've just kept giving them weapons and supplies in the first place.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  > terrorism exists in the first place due to US support for Israel and unnecessary interference in the Middle East. I'm no fan of being Israel's sugar daddy but that's a gross mis-characterization of the situation. The terrorism landscape of the 80s through 2010s has to do with the cold war, the post-colonial governments of the middle east, etc, etc. It's not a simple problem. But yeah we should def stop supporting Israel. Not our sandbox, not our problem.

lawlessone 1y ago

It's has always been happening, especially for people of some backgrounds. Now it's just happening more.

LgLasagnaModel 1y ago
More of a bad thing is worse than less of a bad thing, right?

mrtksn 1y ago

I wonder what people these days think about the song "Imagine" by John Lennon. Free travel, world peace and equality is so out of fashion that a strong majority seems to think that it is OK to restrict people's movement around the world and feel so terrified of foreigners and yet without seeing the irony the same people would talk about becoming interplanetary species. I wouldn't be surprised if the totalitarians drop the "think of the children" line and just doi everything for "national security". I'm not fan of the trend, I'm open about it I despise travel restrictions and the security theater but I really want to hear from people who like the new way the world is headed for.

lastofthemojito 1y ago
I mean, of course, we all would like to be able to travel without restrictions ourselves. The concern for people in developed nations is what would happen to their quality of life if people from poorer nations could freely migrate. Europe has ~750 million people, and even with current policies (where migrants might drown when their boat sinks while the Greek Coast Guard looks on and laughs) millions of migrants try to enter Europe each year. The US has ~340 million people, and even with current policies (where children might be separated from parents and placed into cruel detention centers) millions of migrants try to enter the US each year. If movement was free, how many hundreds of millions would pour from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and South Asia into Europe and the US? The 3+ billion who live in the tropics are only going to become more likely to try to migrate as the climate continues to warm.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  What makes you think that everyone wants to come to Europe? Have you considered that instead of geofencing the non-millionaire population like cattle, maybe not bombing or couping the poor countries is a better option? People don't actually leave the places they grow up or their families and friends to live on European food stamps. Also, Europe tends to receive the worst people because the legal routes are closed. We end up with people who dare to go to the illegal routes for other reasons than running for their lives. US a similar thing, instead of relying on illegal workforce just let in people from the main gates and watch out for shady types. There are so many things that can be done to address the issues instead of dividing the world limited travel areas.

OutOfHere 1y ago

Does using GrapheneOS guard against such searches? Also, what is the future of GrapheneOS given that Google's release of the source code for Pixel's kernel was dropped, replaced with a generic image.

_vere 1y ago
To a degree. You have the duress pin, so you can wipe your phone quickly if need be. But I wouldn't call that guarding, your phone won't get searched but if TSA or ice saw you wipe your phone in front of them with a, to them, unknown feature, I doubt they'll let you enter the country.

sitzkrieg 1y ago

time to start mailing the phone home. lol what a joke

mrweasel 1y ago
I've been debating one how to get a work laptop into the US safely. Last time, earlier this year, I didn't really have any worries, nor was I searched, nor where my devices. While I still believe the risk is close to zero, I have been designing a solution for my laptop. There's not really anything on my laptop, other than SSH keys and some stuff that's in git anyway. So it can technically just be a clean Linux installation on a old burner laptop. When I'm across the border, I could simply install my password manager and pull everything from git. For the phone that's a little more tricky, because I'd need my 2FA for the password manager. I suppose I could do a "blank" phone and just have the TOTP QR code printed on a piece of paper. It just seems like it's more suspicious to carry two blank devices.

ryan_j_naughton 1y ago

Anyone have a link to get around the paywall?

201984 1y ago
Install this and you'll never need a bypass link again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_Paywalls_Clean https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_Paywalls_Clean
27153 1y ago
https://archive.ph/cx5HQ https://archive.ph/cx5HQ
encom 1y ago
I use the flag button. Posting paywalled content is dumb, annoying and pointless.

righthand 1y ago

Our country is too dumb to read crime stats. Of course we would make everyone the enemy regardless of what the constitution and stats say. Do your part and educate an idiot you know. Ask them to stop being unreasonable and stop spreading lies or you will cut them off. This will probably result in you cutting them off. We cannot sink into total FUD!

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> Ask them to stop being unreasonable and stop spreading lies or you will cut them off. This is often how families of cult members act when they discover their family member has joined a cult. Usually it has the effect of pushing the cult member to become further indoctrinated because the cult is the only thing in their life that offers them acceptance and validation. Instead, talk to them using their terms and get them to understand your world view in their terms. Some people will still be obstinate and I do not have a solution for that; I am, however, certain that invalidating them is not a solution, even if one believes that what they are saying is not valid. The point is that people need to feel safe in order to change their opinions (doing so is a very vulnerable moment) and constantly invalidating someone is a great way to make sure they constantly feel psychologically unsafe around you. Just to reiterate: if one is really hoping to change the mind of someone close to them, don't give them an ultimatum to change their mind or you'll cut them off. The result will be that they don't change their mind and you remove yourself from a good position to effect that change.
- righthand 1y ago
  Does that work if the cult violations become more and more normalized? If the cult believes to ignore anyone that disagrees, how do you break through? Crime has gone down over the decades and people are still screaming their heads off at it at every level. How do you embrace cult think about spreading insecurity? How can you argue on their terms when their terms aren’t even remotely accurate?

general1726 1y ago

I have always considered crossing the US border as a training for backup recovery from catastrophic failure. Wiping my phone and laptop clean has shown me where I have gaps in backup recovery.