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I hear stories like this and I can kind of see the proposition. But I’d be more eager to, somehow, see a long-running example of it all at work. I think I’m no

I hear stories like this and I can kind of see the proposition. But I’d be more eager to, somehow, see a long-running example of it all at work. I think I’m not so skeptical about what it can do, but somewhat skeptical that it’s actually as much of a paradigm shift as some describe it to be. I wonder if oftentimes it falls in the enjoyable hobby category of, “I just really enjoy upgrading my workshop.”

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
iLemming 1y ago
It is indisputably not a hobby, at least for me, personally it ain't. I've been coding long enough to see a difference between "oh, what a nice gimmick" and "how the fuck would I even do that, if I didn't know this way existed...". Long. My first programming language was Sinclair BASIC. The second PL I learned was Pascal. I picked up a few more over the years. I'm not trying to show off, nor am I claiming to be an outstanding programmer - I'm neither great nor terrible. I'm just saying I've been doing this shit for a long time, that's all. It isn't a hobby, because Vim and Emacs allow me to perform in a way that I consider far more enjoyable, productive and satisfactory than I ever had before them. That is of course on a personal empirical basis - I cannot promise them having the same effect on anyone else. In my opinion, after many years using many different tools, techniques, ideas and methodologies, frameworks, approaches, systems, platforms, workflows, philosophies, paradigms, strategies, practices, concepts, models, theories, and experiments, I personally find these two to be exactly the paradigm shift — in comparison to my prior experience when I didn't have them. But let me be more specific - the paradigm shift I see is not in Emacs or Neovim as tools themselves. The paradigm shift I sense is in the grand ideas behind these tools - modal navigation and Lisp. I honestly don't know why more people don't gravitate towards these ideas. Perhaps, because these ideas are kind of like 'meditation' - people say one can only experience the mind shift after practicing it for some time. I wouldn't know - I never practiced mediation for long. And that time required to see the shift can differ for every person - some may grok it quickly, for some, it may take decades without ever even clicking. Also, you're wrong about "upgrading one's workshop" - it's a misconception that longtime Emacs users constantly have to tweak their configs. My config for example is pretty stable; I often make changes to it not because I have no choice, but because the task at hand calls for it. I write a lot of Lisp because it's an instrument for achieving specific goals and solving specific puzzles - work for which I get paid real amounts of real money. I get paid to use Emacs, not the opposite. So, no: definitely not a hobby.
- naniwaduni 1y ago
  > It isn't a hobby, because Vim and Emacs allow me to perform in a way that I consider far more enjoyable, productive and satisfactory than I ever had before them. That is of course on a personal empirical basis - I cannot promise them having the same effect on anyone else. > I honestly don't know why more people don't gravitate towards these ideas. Perhaps, because these ideas are kind of like 'meditation' - people say one can only experience the mind shift after practicing it for some time. idk this reads a lot like tl;dr: it's a hobby.
  - iLemming 1y ago
    Well, sure, to a certain degree it is a hobby. Here, let me quickly run (define-it-at-point) command while I'm typing this comment, because of course I can do that in Emacs. First definition says "it's a horse", then there's another: > Any favorite object, pursuit, or topic; that which a person persistently pursues or dwells upon with zeal or delight, as if riding a horse. Sure, in that sense it can be characterized as a hobby. What's the opposite of a hobby? Well, it's either "work", "chore" or "obligation"— all three kind of fit for my example. I use Emacs at work, for work, to do stuff I get paid for - check! It sometimes feels like a chore - well, what tool you use everyday doesn't? Sometimes you need to update it, delete stale cache files, reinstall, fix dependencies, etc, so can feel like a chore - check! Whenever I open-source some piece of code that extends Emacs, I have an obligation not to break it, etc. So the third one fits too. So, like I said - not a fucking hobby. Shall we continue quibbling over words, how what reads to you is not what I meant and maybe even discuss how semantic meaning of words may change due to interlocutors' backgrounds, age, mood or the current lunar phase, or do you have some other kind of nitpicking in mind?
  - Tor3 1y ago
    It doesn't make sense to define something as a "hobby" just because there's some enjoyable or, in the quote you made, "meditation" and "mind shift" parts in it. What's a "hobby" anyway? As the one you commented on, I have also been programming for a very long time. And why do I continue to do that, instead of changing to some management role? The answer to that is that I enjoy programming. I enjoy making tools to make the tools to create the thing I want to create, and to have enough stuff I want to create, I have a job which provides that in abundance. There are no hard borders between "hobby" and "job". It's a useless distinction in this case.
keybored 1y ago
The distinction between a profound paradigm shift and something that can be denigrated as a pasttime is subjective and in turn no empirical investigation will draw out an objective conclusion.
- iLemming 1y ago
  We're not discussing science here. Personal empirical experience is different from scientific empirical proof. If something has profoundly shifted my worldview, thinking patterns, or life approach, that's my direct, lived evidence - my own empirical data. One's personal transformation, changed perspectives, or new capabilities are real empirical evidence - just not the kind that satisfies scientific methodology's requirements for generalizability. I never even hinted at attempting to prove it to be universally paradigm-shifting for everybody, but I can certainly vouch for its profound impact on thousands of users based on their direct experience.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

iLemming 1y ago

It is indisputably not a hobby, at least for me, personally it ain't. I've been coding long enough to see a difference between "oh, what a nice gimmick" and "how the fuck would I even do that, if I didn't know this way existed...". Long. My first programming language was Sinclair BASIC. The second PL I learned was Pascal. I picked up a few more over the years. I'm not trying to show off, nor am I claiming to be an outstanding programmer - I'm neither great nor terrible. I'm just saying I've been doing this shit for a long time, that's all. It isn't a hobby, because Vim and Emacs allow me to perform in a way that I consider far more enjoyable, productive and satisfactory than I ever had before them. That is of course on a personal empirical basis - I cannot promise them having the same effect on anyone else. In my opinion, after many years using many different tools, techniques, ideas and methodologies, frameworks, approaches, systems, platforms, workflows, philosophies, paradigms, strategies, practices, concepts, models, theories, and experiments, I personally find these two to be exactly the paradigm shift — in comparison to my prior experience when I didn't have them. But let me be more specific - the paradigm shift I see is not in Emacs or Neovim as tools themselves. The paradigm shift I sense is in the grand ideas behind these tools - modal navigation and Lisp. I honestly don't know why more people don't gravitate towards these ideas. Perhaps, because these ideas are kind of like 'meditation' - people say one can only experience the mind shift after practicing it for some time. I wouldn't know - I never practiced mediation for long. And that time required to see the shift can differ for every person - some may grok it quickly, for some, it may take decades without ever even clicking. Also, you're wrong about "upgrading one's workshop" - it's a misconception that longtime Emacs users constantly have to tweak their configs. My config for example is pretty stable; I often make changes to it not because I have no choice, but because the task at hand calls for it. I write a lot of Lisp because it's an instrument for achieving specific goals and solving specific puzzles - work for which I get paid real amounts of real money. I get paid to use Emacs, not the opposite. So, no: definitely not a hobby.

naniwaduni 1y ago
> It isn't a hobby, because Vim and Emacs allow me to perform in a way that I consider far more enjoyable, productive and satisfactory than I ever had before them. That is of course on a personal empirical basis - I cannot promise them having the same effect on anyone else. > I honestly don't know why more people don't gravitate towards these ideas. Perhaps, because these ideas are kind of like 'meditation' - people say one can only experience the mind shift after practicing it for some time. idk this reads a lot like tl;dr: it's a hobby.
- iLemming 1y ago
  Well, sure, to a certain degree it is a hobby. Here, let me quickly run (define-it-at-point) command while I'm typing this comment, because of course I can do that in Emacs. First definition says "it's a horse", then there's another: > Any favorite object, pursuit, or topic; that which a person persistently pursues or dwells upon with zeal or delight, as if riding a horse. Sure, in that sense it can be characterized as a hobby. What's the opposite of a hobby? Well, it's either "work", "chore" or "obligation"— all three kind of fit for my example. I use Emacs at work, for work, to do stuff I get paid for - check! It sometimes feels like a chore - well, what tool you use everyday doesn't? Sometimes you need to update it, delete stale cache files, reinstall, fix dependencies, etc, so can feel like a chore - check! Whenever I open-source some piece of code that extends Emacs, I have an obligation not to break it, etc. So the third one fits too. So, like I said - not a fucking hobby. Shall we continue quibbling over words, how what reads to you is not what I meant and maybe even discuss how semantic meaning of words may change due to interlocutors' backgrounds, age, mood or the current lunar phase, or do you have some other kind of nitpicking in mind?
- Tor3 1y ago
  It doesn't make sense to define something as a "hobby" just because there's some enjoyable or, in the quote you made, "meditation" and "mind shift" parts in it. What's a "hobby" anyway? As the one you commented on, I have also been programming for a very long time. And why do I continue to do that, instead of changing to some management role? The answer to that is that I enjoy programming. I enjoy making tools to make the tools to create the thing I want to create, and to have enough stuff I want to create, I have a job which provides that in abundance. There are no hard borders between "hobby" and "job". It's a useless distinction in this case.

keybored 1y ago

The distinction between a profound paradigm shift and something that can be denigrated as a pasttime is subjective and in turn no empirical investigation will draw out an objective conclusion.

iLemming 1y ago
We're not discussing science here. Personal empirical experience is different from scientific empirical proof. If something has profoundly shifted my worldview, thinking patterns, or life approach, that's my direct, lived evidence - my own empirical data. One's personal transformation, changed perspectives, or new capabilities are real empirical evidence - just not the kind that satisfies scientific methodology's requirements for generalizability. I never even hinted at attempting to prove it to be universally paradigm-shifting for everybody, but I can certainly vouch for its profound impact on thousands of users based on their direct experience.