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> Why is it important to you what the cause is? Because trapping us in this endless debate of what the "real" cause is has been the go-to strategy for the oil

> Why is it important to you what the cause is? Because trapping us in this endless debate of what the "real" cause is has been the go-to strategy for the oil and gas industry, where no matter how many times it is bloody proven, they hem and haw and say "well we need more evidence" but they aren't like, not selling gasoline anymore until we know it's safe are they? They just keep doing exactly what we're pretty damned sure is killing the planet, while endlessly debating whether it is or not.

mhb 1y ago
Why do you care what they say? Shouldn't your response be that it doesn't matter who caused it; we need to fix it regardless. Why do you want to have that argument?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  How would you expand "fix it" as used in your post? What are the generic fixes for global warming, that are applicable to any potential cause? Would the set of potential mitigating actions look the same between human-caused climate change and something like prolonged increases in solar energy output? We have a ton of evidence for human-caused climate change. Understanding the factors that contribute to a problem allow you to take more appropriate actions. Without looking at the causal factors, your ability to thoroughly mitigate tends to be limited. If you were trying to fill a bucket but the bucket was losing water as fast as you poured it in, wouldn't you look into why, maybe see if there's a hole? Or would you just keep pouring and hope for the best?
  - mhb 1y ago
    I would look to see if there was a hole. I'd also consider that I could solve the problem by getting a bigger bucket, freezing the water, or pouring cement into the bucket.
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
      Well unfortunately we only have the one "bucket" - Earth. We don't have the opportunity to exchange it for a bigger bucket. Your other solutions don't work even in the metaphor's context. Flowing water doesn't freeze easily, so you're either cooling the whole system to insanely cold levels or you're pouring ice cubes into the bucket. But we're moving water in the bucket, not ice. We want liquid water. Are we gonna stand around and wait for it to melt when we get to where we're going? And won't the water just leak out while we wait? Cement? I can see that going two ways. Either the hole is so big that the unset cement flows through easily, or it does manage to fill the hole. In the first case nothing has changed except you now have a puddle of cement under the bucket, possibly starting to bind the bucket to the ground. In the other, you may indeed plug the hole, but you've substantially increased the bucket's weight and reduced its capacity. So now that we've both over-extended a metaphor - what are the generic solutions you propose for global warming?
      - mhb 1y ago
        Unsurprisingly, I don't have a novel answer that the world's great minds haven't thought of. I just think it's pointless to keep having the debate about whether the causes are due to human activity, which they almost certainly are. But since you're hungry for alternatives other than stop doing the things that caused global warming, there are the geoengineering options.
        sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
        The debate is, indeed, pretty pointless. The data is pretty clear. Human activity is driving global warming. I'm not hungry for alternatives. I'm hungry for the debate to end and us to move forward towards less polluting energy sources and transportation means. As we agree there is no true debate to be had about the causes, we should move on to solutions. Time for another metaphor! Let's say you live in a big house with a bunch of other people. There's a problem, someone keeps shitting on the floor. You even know who the floor-shitter is! You could ignore what you know about the cause of the situation and just focus on after-the-fact mitigation. You could put down absorbent pads and hope the floor-shitter chooses to use them. You could establish a shit-watch rotation that attempts to detect and clean up the turds as soon as possible after they're laid. You could remove all carpet and rugs to make the cleanup easier. You could install air filters and fresheners to help with the smell. Or you could address the cause, and seek ways to stop the floor-shitter from shitting on the floor in the first place.
lisbbb 1y ago
There isn't going to be a time when humans don't use oil anymore until there is literally zero oil left on the planet.
- vel0city 1y ago
  Sure, but maybe we should have been transitioning our communities 20-30 years ago away from encouraging people to hop in a massive SUV getting 17MPG just to go get a loaf of bread. Maybe we should have been working towards reducing our carbon impact in sane, practical ways many decades ago instead of having our heads buried in the sand for so long.

mhb 1y ago

Why do you care what they say? Shouldn't your response be that it doesn't matter who caused it; we need to fix it regardless. Why do you want to have that argument?

sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
How would you expand "fix it" as used in your post? What are the generic fixes for global warming, that are applicable to any potential cause? Would the set of potential mitigating actions look the same between human-caused climate change and something like prolonged increases in solar energy output? We have a ton of evidence for human-caused climate change. Understanding the factors that contribute to a problem allow you to take more appropriate actions. Without looking at the causal factors, your ability to thoroughly mitigate tends to be limited. If you were trying to fill a bucket but the bucket was losing water as fast as you poured it in, wouldn't you look into why, maybe see if there's a hole? Or would you just keep pouring and hope for the best?
- mhb 1y ago
  I would look to see if there was a hole. I'd also consider that I could solve the problem by getting a bigger bucket, freezing the water, or pouring cement into the bucket.
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
    Well unfortunately we only have the one "bucket" - Earth. We don't have the opportunity to exchange it for a bigger bucket. Your other solutions don't work even in the metaphor's context. Flowing water doesn't freeze easily, so you're either cooling the whole system to insanely cold levels or you're pouring ice cubes into the bucket. But we're moving water in the bucket, not ice. We want liquid water. Are we gonna stand around and wait for it to melt when we get to where we're going? And won't the water just leak out while we wait? Cement? I can see that going two ways. Either the hole is so big that the unset cement flows through easily, or it does manage to fill the hole. In the first case nothing has changed except you now have a puddle of cement under the bucket, possibly starting to bind the bucket to the ground. In the other, you may indeed plug the hole, but you've substantially increased the bucket's weight and reduced its capacity. So now that we've both over-extended a metaphor - what are the generic solutions you propose for global warming?
    - mhb 1y ago
      Unsurprisingly, I don't have a novel answer that the world's great minds haven't thought of. I just think it's pointless to keep having the debate about whether the causes are due to human activity, which they almost certainly are. But since you're hungry for alternatives other than stop doing the things that caused global warming, there are the geoengineering options.
      - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
        The debate is, indeed, pretty pointless. The data is pretty clear. Human activity is driving global warming. I'm not hungry for alternatives. I'm hungry for the debate to end and us to move forward towards less polluting energy sources and transportation means. As we agree there is no true debate to be had about the causes, we should move on to solutions. Time for another metaphor! Let's say you live in a big house with a bunch of other people. There's a problem, someone keeps shitting on the floor. You even know who the floor-shitter is! You could ignore what you know about the cause of the situation and just focus on after-the-fact mitigation. You could put down absorbent pads and hope the floor-shitter chooses to use them. You could establish a shit-watch rotation that attempts to detect and clean up the turds as soon as possible after they're laid. You could remove all carpet and rugs to make the cleanup easier. You could install air filters and fresheners to help with the smell. Or you could address the cause, and seek ways to stop the floor-shitter from shitting on the floor in the first place.

lisbbb 1y ago

There isn't going to be a time when humans don't use oil anymore until there is literally zero oil left on the planet.

vel0city 1y ago
Sure, but maybe we should have been transitioning our communities 20-30 years ago away from encouraging people to hop in a massive SUV getting 17MPG just to go get a loaf of bread. Maybe we should have been working towards reducing our carbon impact in sane, practical ways many decades ago instead of having our heads buried in the sand for so long.