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Also, according to Chrome's telemetry, very, very few websites are using it in practice. It's not like the proposal is threatening to make some significant port

Also, according to Chrome's telemetry, very, very few websites are using it in practice. It's not like the proposal is threatening to make some significant portion of the web inaccessible. At least we can see the data underlying the proposal here.

intrasight 1y ago
Sadly, I just built a web site with HTMX and am using the client-side-templates extension for client-side XSLT. >very, very few websites Doesn't include all the corporate web sites that they are probably blocked from getting such telemetry for. These are the users that are pushing back.
- strawhatguy 1y ago
  Does that library use the browser's xslt? I'm curious as to the scope of the problem, if html spec drops xslt, what the solutions would be; I've never really used xslt (once maybe, 20 years ago). In addition to just pre-rendering your webpage server-side, I assume another possible solution is some javascript library that does the transformations, if it needed to be client-side? Found a js-only library, so someone has done this before: https://www.npmjs.com/package/xslt-processor https://www.npmjs.com/package/xslt-processor
mhitza 1y ago
Looking at the problem differently. Say some change would make Hacker News unusable, the data would support this and show that it practically affects no one.
- otterley 1y ago
  First, we are an insignificant portion of the web, and it's okay to admit that. Second, if HN were built upon outdated Web standards practically nobody else uses, I'm sure YCombinator could address the issue before the deadline (which would probably be at least a year or two out) to meet the needs of its community. Every plant needs nourishment to survive.
  - account42 1y ago
    It's not OK for the Google & co to chip away at "insignificant" portions of the web until all that's left are big corporate run platforms.
    - otterley 1y ago
      First, you're assuming that those portions of the Web won't evolve in order to survive. Second, you're ascribing a motive to Google that you assume (probably falsely) that they possess.
troupo 1y ago
1. Chrome telemetry underreports a lot of use cases 2. They have a semi-internal document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpSpNJ96U8trhNkfV0v9fk/edit?tab=t.0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpS... that explicitly states: small usage percentage doesn't mean you can safely remove a feature --- start quote --- As a general rule of thumb, 0.1% of PageVisits (1 in 1000) is large, while 0.001% is considered small but non-trivial. Anything below about 0.00001% (1 in 10 million) is generally considered trivial. There are around 771 billion web pages viewed in Chrome every month (not counting other Chromium-based browsers). So seriously breaking even 0.0001% still results in someone being frustrated every 3 seconds, and so not to be taken lightly! --- end quote --- 3. Any feature removal on the web has to be a) given thorough thought and investigation which we haven't seen. Library of congress apparently uses XSLT and Chrome devs couldn't care less
- otterley 1y ago
  Hmm, I don't see the LOC listed here among the top sites: https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/78 https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity... - where are you seeing the Library of Congress as impacted?
  - troupo 1y ago
    This was mentioned in the discussions and are an easy search away. Which means that googlers in their arrogance didn't do any research at all and that their counter underrepresents data as explicitly stated in their own document https://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-conversions.html https://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-conversions.html https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd_xml_info.shtml https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd_xml... And then there's Congress: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Aug/19/xslt/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Aug/19/xslt/
    - bawolff 1y ago
      The library of congress examples appear to be using server side xslt not client side. Thus they are not affected by this deprecation. Before calling people arrogant you should read your own links. [The congress example is legit]
kuschku 1y ago
The people writing, and visiting websites that rely on XSLT are the same users that disable or patch out telemetry.
lenkite 1y ago
A LOT of internal corpo websites use XSLT.

intrasight 1y ago

Sadly, I just built a web site with HTMX and am using the client-side-templates extension for client-side XSLT. >very, very few websites Doesn't include all the corporate web sites that they are probably blocked from getting such telemetry for. These are the users that are pushing back.

strawhatguy 1y ago
Does that library use the browser's xslt? I'm curious as to the scope of the problem, if html spec drops xslt, what the solutions would be; I've never really used xslt (once maybe, 20 years ago). In addition to just pre-rendering your webpage server-side, I assume another possible solution is some javascript library that does the transformations, if it needed to be client-side? Found a js-only library, so someone has done this before: https://www.npmjs.com/package/xslt-processor https://www.npmjs.com/package/xslt-processor

mhitza 1y ago

Looking at the problem differently. Say some change would make Hacker News unusable, the data would support this and show that it practically affects no one.

otterley 1y ago
First, we are an insignificant portion of the web, and it's okay to admit that. Second, if HN were built upon outdated Web standards practically nobody else uses, I'm sure YCombinator could address the issue before the deadline (which would probably be at least a year or two out) to meet the needs of its community. Every plant needs nourishment to survive.
- account42 1y ago
  It's not OK for the Google & co to chip away at "insignificant" portions of the web until all that's left are big corporate run platforms.
  - otterley 1y ago
    First, you're assuming that those portions of the Web won't evolve in order to survive. Second, you're ascribing a motive to Google that you assume (probably falsely) that they possess.

troupo 1y ago

1. Chrome telemetry underreports a lot of use cases 2. They have a semi-internal document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpSpNJ96U8trhNkfV0v9fk/edit?tab=t.0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpS... that explicitly states: small usage percentage doesn't mean you can safely remove a feature --- start quote --- As a general rule of thumb, 0.1% of PageVisits (1 in 1000) is large, while 0.001% is considered small but non-trivial. Anything below about 0.00001% (1 in 10 million) is generally considered trivial. There are around 771 billion web pages viewed in Chrome every month (not counting other Chromium-based browsers). So seriously breaking even 0.0001% still results in someone being frustrated every 3 seconds, and so not to be taken lightly! --- end quote --- 3. Any feature removal on the web has to be a) given thorough thought and investigation which we haven't seen. Library of congress apparently uses XSLT and Chrome devs couldn't care less

otterley 1y ago
Hmm, I don't see the LOC listed here among the top sites: https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/78 https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity... - where are you seeing the Library of Congress as impacted?
- troupo 1y ago
  This was mentioned in the discussions and are an easy search away. Which means that googlers in their arrogance didn't do any research at all and that their counter underrepresents data as explicitly stated in their own document https://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-conversions.html https://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/mods-conversions.html https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd_xml_info.shtml https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd_xml... And then there's Congress: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Aug/19/xslt/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Aug/19/xslt/
  - bawolff 1y ago
    The library of congress examples appear to be using server side xslt not client side. Thus they are not affected by this deprecation. Before calling people arrogant you should read your own links. [The congress example is legit]

kuschku 1y ago

The people writing, and visiting websites that rely on XSLT are the same users that disable or patch out telemetry.

lenkite 1y ago

A LOT of internal corpo websites use XSLT.