4 ms·

It’s actually a terrible toxic idea that guarantees that anywhere beloved, prized, peaceful or beautiful becomes unaffordable as international jet setting tech

It’s actually a terrible toxic idea that guarantees that anywhere beloved, prized, peaceful or beautiful becomes unaffordable as international jet setting tech people nurse a single cappuccino with their laptops in family-run cafés all around the world while driving up the price of property. The only way a country should approach digital nomads is to charge them massive flat fees and change the law to allow local planners to zone them out of most accommodation.

KronisLV 1y ago
> while driving up the price of property. So punish the people wanting to travel instead of the greed that leads to this?
- exasperaited 1y ago
  Punish? No. Compensate for their unfunded externalities.
littlecranky67 1y ago
I am living in a Digital Nomad hotspot, and you are painting a dystopian picture that is not reality. Most DNs I know work either from Home or Coworking Spaces, which have sprawled up everywhere. You pay around 150-250€/month for your own desk. There are also now "coworking cafés", that usually target DNs and Coworkers by charging a flat fee (i.e. 5€ a day) a give either a free coffee included, or 10%-20% rebate on drinks/food. These cafés are specifically setup for Laptops (i.e. single table layouts). Other cafés that had those "nursing people" simply put up signs disallowing laptops - which is at every café owners discretion to do so. In my experience, the local starbucks is crowded with tourists and their laptops (or tablets with keyboards), but these folks are not DNs, they are just waiting for their plane or airbnb to get ready. Regarding property price and high rent, this discussion is pretty stupid. Every country wants richer-than-average people to come and pay taxes and/or spend their money. I often hear the bogus argument that DNs don't pay taxes which is bullshit, because even DNs pay taxes indirectly, as every amout they spend is someone elses taxable income (this includes rent). If they don't come, those incomes won't exist and no taxes be paid. Most places in Europe bring in millions of poor immigrants, while some countries (most prominently spain) the people complain about rich immigrants...
- leononame 1y ago
  I live in what's not exactly a digital nomad hotspot, but they do come. You pay 150€/month for a coworking space in a city where some people pay 300-400€/month rent. These digital nomads come here, pay absurd amounts of rent without blinking an eye. And the tax thing is not a bogus argument. When people only pay taxes indirectly, they are tourists. Digital nomads pay _much_ less tax overall than other people, because people who pay income tax pay indirect taxes as well. If the digital nomads don't come, they also wouldn't raise rent and café prices for everyone around them. You come here, register yourself as a freelancer and pay income tax? You're very welcome in my book. But if you come to the country to leech off its cheap prices but don't pay income tax, you can go back where you came from. We bring in millions of poor immigrants for various reasons: It's the human thing to do, these immigrants do cheap and hard labor that a lot of natives won't do (think construction, food delivery, etc.) and as such even provide benefits to us. Digital Nomads mostly aren't immigrants. They come for a limited time, don't provide much to the local economy outside spending some money (and even then it's not that much because a lot of them come to cheap countries to live for cheap and save money) and then leave again. It's not really comparable.
  - littlecranky67 1y ago
    > When people only pay taxes indirectly, they are tourists. Digital nomads pay _much_ less tax overall than other people, because people who pay income tax pay indirect taxes as well Bad argument, as the alternative is the DN (just as the tourist) simply not coming to the island. If a DN spends 2000€ a month, that is 2000€ taxable income for someone else. If the DN doesn't come someone else makes 2000€ less of income. This does not compare to people living in the place, as they are there no matter what. Every cent of foreign money flowing into your economy ON TOP is a bonus. It is only bad if it removes someone else who would spend that money, but that is not the case. And if you would argue that the economy does not need more foreign money and you do not want productivity and wealth increase and have stay things as they are, you are advocating socalism - look at cuba, venezuela or argentina how that worked out.
    - leononame 1y ago
kristoff200512 1y ago
The arrival of digital nomads will not fundamentally drive up a country’s or a city’s housing prices, as they usually only rent. Renting has no direct impact on the development of local housing prices. On the contrary, the influx of digital nomads can actually increase the income of most low-cost countries, since they will inevitably spend money locally.
- baq 1y ago
  more renters than apartments/homes => rents go up => cap rate goes up => new home prices go up. it isn't instant obviously, but if the renters keep coming and new developments don't accelerate, prices will keep going up. see bay area for a market that keeps going up for two decades or whatever.
- Ekaros 1y ago
  Renting does have direct impact on housing prices. As the price landlords pay for units is based on rent they can get. If rent they can get goes up, so does the amount they are willing to pay.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  > Renting has no direct impact on the development of local housing prices. Ehh??? Sorry this is wholly untrue. Landlords get easy, often zero-deposit mortgages on houses and then let them out to make money. Of course this affects local house prices, because it absorbs housing stock. Particularly in long-established, geographically bounded, attractive European towns and cities where there is no possibility of growing the housing stock fast enough to compete. More to the point, the reason we know the arrival of digital nomads will drive up house prices is that they absolutely already have done, everywhere they have been courted.

KronisLV 1y ago

> while driving up the price of property. So punish the people wanting to travel instead of the greed that leads to this?

exasperaited 1y ago
Punish? No. Compensate for their unfunded externalities.

littlecranky67 1y ago

I am living in a Digital Nomad hotspot, and you are painting a dystopian picture that is not reality. Most DNs I know work either from Home or Coworking Spaces, which have sprawled up everywhere. You pay around 150-250€/month for your own desk. There are also now "coworking cafés", that usually target DNs and Coworkers by charging a flat fee (i.e. 5€ a day) a give either a free coffee included, or 10%-20% rebate on drinks/food. These cafés are specifically setup for Laptops (i.e. single table layouts). Other cafés that had those "nursing people" simply put up signs disallowing laptops - which is at every café owners discretion to do so. In my experience, the local starbucks is crowded with tourists and their laptops (or tablets with keyboards), but these folks are not DNs, they are just waiting for their plane or airbnb to get ready. Regarding property price and high rent, this discussion is pretty stupid. Every country wants richer-than-average people to come and pay taxes and/or spend their money. I often hear the bogus argument that DNs don't pay taxes which is bullshit, because even DNs pay taxes indirectly, as every amout they spend is someone elses taxable income (this includes rent). If they don't come, those incomes won't exist and no taxes be paid. Most places in Europe bring in millions of poor immigrants, while some countries (most prominently spain) the people complain about rich immigrants...

leononame 1y ago
I live in what's not exactly a digital nomad hotspot, but they do come. You pay 150€/month for a coworking space in a city where some people pay 300-400€/month rent. These digital nomads come here, pay absurd amounts of rent without blinking an eye. And the tax thing is not a bogus argument. When people only pay taxes indirectly, they are tourists. Digital nomads pay _much_ less tax overall than other people, because people who pay income tax pay indirect taxes as well. If the digital nomads don't come, they also wouldn't raise rent and café prices for everyone around them. You come here, register yourself as a freelancer and pay income tax? You're very welcome in my book. But if you come to the country to leech off its cheap prices but don't pay income tax, you can go back where you came from. We bring in millions of poor immigrants for various reasons: It's the human thing to do, these immigrants do cheap and hard labor that a lot of natives won't do (think construction, food delivery, etc.) and as such even provide benefits to us. Digital Nomads mostly aren't immigrants. They come for a limited time, don't provide much to the local economy outside spending some money (and even then it's not that much because a lot of them come to cheap countries to live for cheap and save money) and then leave again. It's not really comparable.
- littlecranky67 1y ago
  > When people only pay taxes indirectly, they are tourists. Digital nomads pay _much_ less tax overall than other people, because people who pay income tax pay indirect taxes as well Bad argument, as the alternative is the DN (just as the tourist) simply not coming to the island. If a DN spends 2000€ a month, that is 2000€ taxable income for someone else. If the DN doesn't come someone else makes 2000€ less of income. This does not compare to people living in the place, as they are there no matter what. Every cent of foreign money flowing into your economy ON TOP is a bonus. It is only bad if it removes someone else who would spend that money, but that is not the case. And if you would argue that the economy does not need more foreign money and you do not want productivity and wealth increase and have stay things as they are, you are advocating socalism - look at cuba, venezuela or argentina how that worked out.
  - leononame 1y ago

kristoff200512 1y ago

The arrival of digital nomads will not fundamentally drive up a country’s or a city’s housing prices, as they usually only rent. Renting has no direct impact on the development of local housing prices. On the contrary, the influx of digital nomads can actually increase the income of most low-cost countries, since they will inevitably spend money locally.

baq 1y ago
more renters than apartments/homes => rents go up => cap rate goes up => new home prices go up. it isn't instant obviously, but if the renters keep coming and new developments don't accelerate, prices will keep going up. see bay area for a market that keeps going up for two decades or whatever.
Ekaros 1y ago
Renting does have direct impact on housing prices. As the price landlords pay for units is based on rent they can get. If rent they can get goes up, so does the amount they are willing to pay.
exasperaited 1y ago
> Renting has no direct impact on the development of local housing prices. Ehh??? Sorry this is wholly untrue. Landlords get easy, often zero-deposit mortgages on houses and then let them out to make money. Of course this affects local house prices, because it absorbs housing stock. Particularly in long-established, geographically bounded, attractive European towns and cities where there is no possibility of growing the housing stock fast enough to compete. More to the point, the reason we know the arrival of digital nomads will drive up house prices is that they absolutely already have done, everywhere they have been courted.