6 ms·

Government regulation of shameful behaviour? That's worked out wonderfully in the past.

lovich 1y ago
European governments have regulations for anti social behaviors that curb some excesses and they haven’t collapsed. So I would agree, they have worked in the past
- b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago
  Give us some examples.
  - collingreen 1y ago
    No, u
  - ajuc 1y ago
    Why bother with these commie Europeans, let's start with US, shall we? Ever tried to walk naked in the middle of your city? What is the reason it's not allowed?
  - lovich 1y ago
    Hacker news told me to stop posting so fast (i.e. i pissed people off enough to flag) but belatedly, the UK has A.S.B.O.s, Germany has many laws and regulations against speech and being part of extremist groups. Both countries seem to be doing fine compared to the global competition
    - llllm 1y ago
      That means you have been shadow banned, you’ll need a new account.
      - lovich 1y ago
        No, it means I got flagged for a few hours. If I was shadow banned you couldn’t have seen my comment
    - haskellshill 1y ago
      And those are supposed to be good things? Don't make me laugh. The only good anti-antisocial-behavior regulations I've seen are those of China
- samdoesnothing 1y ago
  Governments once banned interracial relationships and marriage, homosexuality, women working outside the home, divorce, birth control, dancing, drinking etc, on account of contributing to anti-social behaviour. It's true that they haven't collapsed, but I don't think that's because those things were once banned.
  - lovich 1y ago
    If your point is that what was acceptable in the past is now distasteful, then respectfully I do not care. The fact that the government cannot create a regulation that works for everyone, everywhere, all at once across time and space is not a winning argument for me since that limitation applies to all actors. We go through cycles where we either change what society generally considers "ok" or we discover that something we thought was ok was actually a great evil after some forerunners on moral thought convince enough people of the righteousness of their belief. That doesn't make regulating bad behavior not ok.
    - samdoesnothing 1y ago
      I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour, no matter how distasteful we find it, is not a great idea for various reasons - 1. it's subjective, 2. people get tired of prudish cultures and act out in various ways, 3. you end up on the wrong side of history. As a society we're becoming a lot more liberal about letting people do their own thing, as long as they aren't actually hurting others. Playing music out loud is not hurting others, neither is wearing a bikini at the beach, etc. Of course there are always the hall monitors that want to control other peoples behaviour and they often use the excuse that they're regulating bad behaviour for the sake of society. Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power.
      - lovich 1y ago
        > I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. It could be either > I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour… I did not mention anything close to regulating “most” behavior, and I want to call out to you, since you are respectfully laying out your point, that this seems to be a common knee jerk reaction to a large number of people bemoaning any particular issue if I bring up government regulation. That knee jerk reaction specifically being the assumption that being for any government regulations means you are for regulating most or all things. > Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power. It’s only thankful if you prefer the situation. If you are someone who does not want to experience pot smoke and loud music blaring in your ear when someone chooses to do so because they have the freedom to, then maybe you prefer the hall monitor. I’m not even advocating for one option or the other. This thread started with me pointing out to someone who was upset at people engaging in anti social behavior en masse, that the solution was government regulation. If you don’t like government regulations in general, or you just think that on net they are a detriment, then the solution is to make peace with the fact that other people are going to use their freedom in a way that you don’t like
- roenxi 1y ago
  Haven't most European governments in the last century or so collapsed? Eastern Europe regulated anti-social behaviorsandin a pretty extreme way and the superstructure collapsed directly, but Western Europe as it exists now is what emerged out of the ashes of the last collapse in the 1930s. I don't think there are many broad lessons to learn beyond aiming for peace and liberty, but "European governments didn't collapse" is hardly a powerful argument. The area is notorious for collapse, it is still in living memory when large chunks of Europe fell apart, sometimes quite comfortably so. It could easily happen again.
ajuc 1y ago
Yes, it did. Despite all its shortcomings the invention of law has had a pretty obvious positive impact on our civilization. Instinctive dismissal of government regulation like it could never solve any problem is a bias. Pretty common in tech circles, but still.

European governments have regulations for anti social behaviors that curb some excesses and they haven’t collapsed. So I would agree, they have worked in the past

b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago
Give us some examples.
- collingreen 1y ago
  No, u
- ajuc 1y ago
  Why bother with these commie Europeans, let's start with US, shall we? Ever tried to walk naked in the middle of your city? What is the reason it's not allowed?
- lovich 1y ago
  Hacker news told me to stop posting so fast (i.e. i pissed people off enough to flag) but belatedly, the UK has A.S.B.O.s, Germany has many laws and regulations against speech and being part of extremist groups. Both countries seem to be doing fine compared to the global competition
  - llllm 1y ago
    That means you have been shadow banned, you’ll need a new account.
    - lovich 1y ago
      No, it means I got flagged for a few hours. If I was shadow banned you couldn’t have seen my comment
  - haskellshill 1y ago
    And those are supposed to be good things? Don't make me laugh. The only good anti-antisocial-behavior regulations I've seen are those of China
samdoesnothing 1y ago
Governments once banned interracial relationships and marriage, homosexuality, women working outside the home, divorce, birth control, dancing, drinking etc, on account of contributing to anti-social behaviour. It's true that they haven't collapsed, but I don't think that's because those things were once banned.
- lovich 1y ago
  If your point is that what was acceptable in the past is now distasteful, then respectfully I do not care. The fact that the government cannot create a regulation that works for everyone, everywhere, all at once across time and space is not a winning argument for me since that limitation applies to all actors. We go through cycles where we either change what society generally considers "ok" or we discover that something we thought was ok was actually a great evil after some forerunners on moral thought convince enough people of the righteousness of their belief. That doesn't make regulating bad behavior not ok.
  - samdoesnothing 1y ago
    I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour, no matter how distasteful we find it, is not a great idea for various reasons - 1. it's subjective, 2. people get tired of prudish cultures and act out in various ways, 3. you end up on the wrong side of history. As a society we're becoming a lot more liberal about letting people do their own thing, as long as they aren't actually hurting others. Playing music out loud is not hurting others, neither is wearing a bikini at the beach, etc. Of course there are always the hall monitors that want to control other peoples behaviour and they often use the excuse that they're regulating bad behaviour for the sake of society. Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power.
    - lovich 1y ago
      > I think you meant the opposite - that what was distasteful in the past is no longer distasteful today. It could be either > I think we realised as society that regulating most behaviour… I did not mention anything close to regulating “most” behavior, and I want to call out to you, since you are respectfully laying out your point, that this seems to be a common knee jerk reaction to a large number of people bemoaning any particular issue if I bring up government regulation. That knee jerk reaction specifically being the assumption that being for any government regulations means you are for regulating most or all things. > Thankfully it seems like we are beginning to reject those people and push them out of power. It’s only thankful if you prefer the situation. If you are someone who does not want to experience pot smoke and loud music blaring in your ear when someone chooses to do so because they have the freedom to, then maybe you prefer the hall monitor. I’m not even advocating for one option or the other. This thread started with me pointing out to someone who was upset at people engaging in anti social behavior en masse, that the solution was government regulation. If you don’t like government regulations in general, or you just think that on net they are a detriment, then the solution is to make peace with the fact that other people are going to use their freedom in a way that you don’t like
roenxi 1y ago
Haven't most European governments in the last century or so collapsed? Eastern Europe regulated anti-social behaviorsandin a pretty extreme way and the superstructure collapsed directly, but Western Europe as it exists now is what emerged out of the ashes of the last collapse in the 1930s. I don't think there are many broad lessons to learn beyond aiming for peace and liberty, but "European governments didn't collapse" is hardly a powerful argument. The area is notorious for collapse, it is still in living memory when large chunks of Europe fell apart, sometimes quite comfortably so. It could easily happen again.

ajuc 1y ago

Yes, it did. Despite all its shortcomings the invention of law has had a pretty obvious positive impact on our civilization. Instinctive dismissal of government regulation like it could never solve any problem is a bias. Pretty common in tech circles, but still.