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I think we (sorry I) have seen that degradation has not the concern, it's the pack engineering that is an issue by a large margin. Tesla's packs first produced

I think we (sorry I) have seen that degradation has not the concern, it's the pack engineering that is an issue by a large margin. Tesla's packs first produced in 2017/18 for the model 3 represented largely the industry's first mass produced packs that will largely fail naturally, not due to pack engineering issues (failed cells, leaks, cooling, etc...). Before that required a much higher pack replacement rate, and other manufacturers have the same issues.

LtWorf 1y ago
[flagged]
- bangaladore 1y ago
  Care to provide constructive feedback/information then rather than a pedantic correction?
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    The comment I responded to was just about one person feelings, trying to involve everyone else in their feelings, it provided no information or way to validate those feelings, hence my response.
  - mft_ 1y ago
    It’s not a pedantic correction, it’s a relevant anecdote to the contrary.
    - bangaladore 1y ago
      I'd disagree for a couple reasons: 1. We in English can mean different things, from you and I to a broader group. Focusing only on that word without addressing the actual point comes off as a language correction. 2. The original comment made several claims about degradation, pack engineering, and industry history. Ignoring those to focus only on wording misses the main discussion. If the responder focused on a given claim that they refute, that's perfectly fine. They didn't.
      - mft_ 1y ago
        Apologies; re-reading the thread, I now realise I had mistakenly thought you were replying to a different comment. My bad. I'd remove my previous comment but it's too late now. (I thought you'd replied to this comment - hence my thinking it was a relevant anecdote) > You may be right. But we have a Model S 85D from 2015 and basically everything was replaced (seats, all door handles, ac compressor, sun roof, glove box, gauge cluster LCD, main LCD, MPU) except the battery. That's been great, and 10 years in tracking at 85% capacity.
stetrain 1y ago
Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. More modern EVs with full liquid thermal management and newer cell revisions and chemistries seem to be holding up much better over time. Some chemistries like LFP have even greater cycle and calendar life in return for a bit less energy density. Ford and GM are both betting big on these for their future entry-level EVs and I think they will end up being a common choice where maximum range isn't the customer's primary concern.
- floxy 1y ago
  >Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. Don't forget that beside the chemistry issue in hot environments, the original Leaf only had a 24 kWh battery, so you'd have a lot more cycles than say a 60 kWh or 90 kWh battery. If you assume it is good for 1,000 equivalent charge cycles, and assume you 3.5 miles/kWh, than your 24 kWh battery would be good for 84,000 miles. A 60 kWh pack would be good for 210,000 miles, and a 90 kWh pack is good for 315,000 miles. A new Chevrolet Silverado EV has a 200 kWh pack (which, if you can squeeze out 2 miles/kWh, would be good for 400,000 miles). And with a small battery it is more likely that you'd need to charge up to 100% and discharge closer to 0%, which is also harder on the battery.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 1y ago
  >Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. I never understood why they carried on with that for so long when they had a better system in their vans which they could have dropped right in.
- gambiting 1y ago
  >>Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. Volkswagen e-Ups, Seat Mii Electric and Skoda CitiGo EV(same car really), all have an air-cooled battery, been on the market for 13 years now and there's no significant degradation reported(not in a systematic way like with the Leafs). I think it's just different chemistry to what the Leafs were using.
toddmorey 1y ago
You may be right. But we have a Model S 85D from 2015 and basically everything was replaced (seats, all door handles, ac compressor, sun roof, glove box, gauge cluster LCD, main LCD, MPU) except the battery. That's been great, and 10 years in tracking at 85% capacity.

LtWorf 1y ago

[flagged]

bangaladore 1y ago
Care to provide constructive feedback/information then rather than a pedantic correction?
- LtWorf 1y ago
  The comment I responded to was just about one person feelings, trying to involve everyone else in their feelings, it provided no information or way to validate those feelings, hence my response.
- mft_ 1y ago
  It’s not a pedantic correction, it’s a relevant anecdote to the contrary.
  - bangaladore 1y ago
    I'd disagree for a couple reasons: 1. We in English can mean different things, from you and I to a broader group. Focusing only on that word without addressing the actual point comes off as a language correction. 2. The original comment made several claims about degradation, pack engineering, and industry history. Ignoring those to focus only on wording misses the main discussion. If the responder focused on a given claim that they refute, that's perfectly fine. They didn't.
    - mft_ 1y ago
      Apologies; re-reading the thread, I now realise I had mistakenly thought you were replying to a different comment. My bad. I'd remove my previous comment but it's too late now. (I thought you'd replied to this comment - hence my thinking it was a relevant anecdote) > You may be right. But we have a Model S 85D from 2015 and basically everything was replaced (seats, all door handles, ac compressor, sun roof, glove box, gauge cluster LCD, main LCD, MPU) except the battery. That's been great, and 10 years in tracking at 85% capacity.

stetrain 1y ago

Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. More modern EVs with full liquid thermal management and newer cell revisions and chemistries seem to be holding up much better over time. Some chemistries like LFP have even greater cycle and calendar life in return for a bit less energy density. Ford and GM are both betting big on these for their future entry-level EVs and I think they will end up being a common choice where maximum range isn't the customer's primary concern.

floxy 1y ago
>Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. Don't forget that beside the chemistry issue in hot environments, the original Leaf only had a 24 kWh battery, so you'd have a lot more cycles than say a 60 kWh or 90 kWh battery. If you assume it is good for 1,000 equivalent charge cycles, and assume you 3.5 miles/kWh, than your 24 kWh battery would be good for 84,000 miles. A 60 kWh pack would be good for 210,000 miles, and a 90 kWh pack is good for 315,000 miles. A new Chevrolet Silverado EV has a 200 kWh pack (which, if you can squeeze out 2 miles/kWh, would be good for 400,000 miles). And with a small battery it is more likely that you'd need to charge up to 100% and discharge closer to 0%, which is also harder on the battery.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
tonyedgecombe 1y ago
>Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. I never understood why they carried on with that for so long when they had a better system in their vans which they could have dropped right in.
gambiting 1y ago
>>Also the early Nissan Leafs, pioneers in the mass-market EV space, had batteries with only air cooling and which experienced significant degradation. Volkswagen e-Ups, Seat Mii Electric and Skoda CitiGo EV(same car really), all have an air-cooled battery, been on the market for 13 years now and there's no significant degradation reported(not in a systematic way like with the Leafs). I think it's just different chemistry to what the Leafs were using.

toddmorey 1y ago

You may be right. But we have a Model S 85D from 2015 and basically everything was replaced (seats, all door handles, ac compressor, sun roof, glove box, gauge cluster LCD, main LCD, MPU) except the battery. That's been great, and 10 years in tracking at 85% capacity.