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My wife and I were remarking on this just yesterday. We were driving through a neighborhood of small starter homes, and noting that nobody builds anything like

by mark-r 1y ago

My wife and I were remarking on this just yesterday. We were driving through a neighborhood of small starter homes, and noting that nobody builds anything like that anymore. A two bedroom one bathroom house is all anybody needs to start out and get into the homeownership game, but the only way to get one is from the constrained supply of old ones.

jandrese 1y ago
2br 1bath doesn’t make sense in single family homes. That’s a condo/apartment size residence. Maybe townhome if you live in a low density area. Condos should be a lot more popular, especially for the young and old, but the fees are pretty much always ridiculous. The whole point is to spread out the maintence costs among many residents so they are trivial, instead condo fees are usually in the hundreds or thousands per month per unit for no apparent reason other than the landlord wants a big payday. It doesn’t cost millions per year to maintain some parking spots, a small unstaffed pool, a front desk, and building maintenance. It’s like paying rent on top of your mortgage.
- sethammons 1y ago
  Grew up in a three bed, one bath, with five people. Home ownership in the 1950s got you a shoebox. It was affordable. That's why so many got into the equity game. Larger expectations and larger returns have changed the landscape.
- jwald33 1y ago
  2br 1bath is a fine entry point up until you're looking at a family of 4+ or when you're talking about teenage kids who would want their own rooms. Or retirees who want to downsize, no difference
  - jandrese 1y ago
    The idea is that you live there cheaply while building equity for 5 years or so and then trade up to a family house once you are married and looking to settle down.
- bluGill 1y ago
  If you pay someone to mow your lawn it will costs hundreds per month. Most people just buy a $100 lawn mower and don't count their time (or they count it as exercise) and so don't realize how expensive it is to pay someone to haul a lawn mower (a more expensive commercial model, truck, trailer, play labor - labor isn't just time to mow, but also time to get there and load/unload). There are a lot of other ways that homeowners often are doing labor themselves and saving a lot of money that a condo must pay.
  - jandrese 1y ago
    Hundreds per month but spread out over hundreds of units. Yes, condos have expenses, but the fees always seem grossly out of line with reality.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      Don't forget the roof - your share is 1000 per year. Similar for the driveway, siding...
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  This comment doesn’t make sense. Are you using condos to refer to properties with shared walls where the whole building (and land) is owned by the condo owners? If so, then there is no landlord getting a big payday. Condo expenses are what they are because taking care of a big building is expensive, but also because the condo board sometimes defers maintenance for many years or decades, and then the problems become expensive to fix.
- mark-r 1y ago
  The thing is, that used to be enough. People's standards have changed, and the house I described is no worse than most apartments. Personally I think I'd rather rent than get a condo.
- Ekaros 1y ago
  Just how expensive things can be sounds amazing from certain other countries. Here labour is not exactly cheap, but is cheaper due to lower housing costs. But still my "HOA" bill is ~220€ a month, including heating, normal maintenance, water, electricity(I will be billed more yearly, but I waste lot of it) and powered parking spot... Ofc, if there is renovations those will be billed separately or funded by debt that I have to pay monthly. But still delta sounds just like someone doing something wrong...
- pandaman 1y ago
  If you have a landlord, you are paying rent and not condo fees. If you are paying condo fees then it goes to maintenance and utilities. As for maintenance - you have many residents but also more property to maintain so how would it turn "trivial"? You also have maintenance costs that you usually don't get in a SFH - elevators, trash chutes, pools, parking structures etc. You only save on roof and siding and not even that much as a condo building usually has more expensive roof and siding (both in materials and labor) than a SFH.
lotsofpulp 1y ago
Pretty much everyone aspires to have access to more than 1 toilet if the home has more than 1 person in it. The marginal cost of a home with 2 full bathrooms compared to just 1 bathroom is negligible, and the value and security gained from the convenience and redundancy is immense. Also, even today, there are tons of small 1,500 sq ft homes on 2,000 sq ft lots built and sold in the western US. It just depends on the local market for land prices and demand for small homes.
- wolrah 1y ago
  Absolutely, when I was looking at houses my bare minimum was 1.5 bath. I don't need two showers/tubs, but two toilets was non-negotiable. I lived for a couple of years in a two bed/one bath apartment and the number of times I'd wake up having to use the restroom pretty badly and find my roommate was already in there was just too much. I have some older neighborhoods around and it boggles my mind how many houses I find that are three, four, even five bedrooms with a single bathroom.

by mark-r 1y ago

jandrese 1y ago

2br 1bath doesn’t make sense in single family homes. That’s a condo/apartment size residence. Maybe townhome if you live in a low density area. Condos should be a lot more popular, especially for the young and old, but the fees are pretty much always ridiculous. The whole point is to spread out the maintence costs among many residents so they are trivial, instead condo fees are usually in the hundreds or thousands per month per unit for no apparent reason other than the landlord wants a big payday. It doesn’t cost millions per year to maintain some parking spots, a small unstaffed pool, a front desk, and building maintenance. It’s like paying rent on top of your mortgage.

sethammons 1y ago
Grew up in a three bed, one bath, with five people. Home ownership in the 1950s got you a shoebox. It was affordable. That's why so many got into the equity game. Larger expectations and larger returns have changed the landscape.
jwald33 1y ago
2br 1bath is a fine entry point up until you're looking at a family of 4+ or when you're talking about teenage kids who would want their own rooms. Or retirees who want to downsize, no difference
- jandrese 1y ago
  The idea is that you live there cheaply while building equity for 5 years or so and then trade up to a family house once you are married and looking to settle down.
bluGill 1y ago
If you pay someone to mow your lawn it will costs hundreds per month. Most people just buy a $100 lawn mower and don't count their time (or they count it as exercise) and so don't realize how expensive it is to pay someone to haul a lawn mower (a more expensive commercial model, truck, trailer, play labor - labor isn't just time to mow, but also time to get there and load/unload). There are a lot of other ways that homeowners often are doing labor themselves and saving a lot of money that a condo must pay.
- jandrese 1y ago
  Hundreds per month but spread out over hundreds of units. Yes, condos have expenses, but the fees always seem grossly out of line with reality.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Don't forget the roof - your share is 1000 per year. Similar for the driveway, siding...
lotsofpulp 1y ago
This comment doesn’t make sense. Are you using condos to refer to properties with shared walls where the whole building (and land) is owned by the condo owners? If so, then there is no landlord getting a big payday. Condo expenses are what they are because taking care of a big building is expensive, but also because the condo board sometimes defers maintenance for many years or decades, and then the problems become expensive to fix.
mark-r 1y ago
The thing is, that used to be enough. People's standards have changed, and the house I described is no worse than most apartments. Personally I think I'd rather rent than get a condo.
Ekaros 1y ago
Just how expensive things can be sounds amazing from certain other countries. Here labour is not exactly cheap, but is cheaper due to lower housing costs. But still my "HOA" bill is ~220€ a month, including heating, normal maintenance, water, electricity(I will be billed more yearly, but I waste lot of it) and powered parking spot... Ofc, if there is renovations those will be billed separately or funded by debt that I have to pay monthly. But still delta sounds just like someone doing something wrong...
pandaman 1y ago
If you have a landlord, you are paying rent and not condo fees. If you are paying condo fees then it goes to maintenance and utilities. As for maintenance - you have many residents but also more property to maintain so how would it turn "trivial"? You also have maintenance costs that you usually don't get in a SFH - elevators, trash chutes, pools, parking structures etc. You only save on roof and siding and not even that much as a condo building usually has more expensive roof and siding (both in materials and labor) than a SFH.

lotsofpulp 1y ago

Pretty much everyone aspires to have access to more than 1 toilet if the home has more than 1 person in it. The marginal cost of a home with 2 full bathrooms compared to just 1 bathroom is negligible, and the value and security gained from the convenience and redundancy is immense. Also, even today, there are tons of small 1,500 sq ft homes on 2,000 sq ft lots built and sold in the western US. It just depends on the local market for land prices and demand for small homes.

wolrah 1y ago
Absolutely, when I was looking at houses my bare minimum was 1.5 bath. I don't need two showers/tubs, but two toilets was non-negotiable. I lived for a couple of years in a two bed/one bath apartment and the number of times I'd wake up having to use the restroom pretty badly and find my roommate was already in there was just too much. I have some older neighborhoods around and it boggles my mind how many houses I find that are three, four, even five bedrooms with a single bathroom.