4 ms·

I think we should really just stop asking if "the old ways" actually work or not as it seems entirely irrelevant to the people that seek them out most of the ti

I think we should really just stop asking if "the old ways" actually work or not as it seems entirely irrelevant to the people that seek them out most of the time. They are acts of pure ritual.

darth_avocado 1y ago
Some old ways do work and it is worth asking whether they work. Aspirin was infamously drawn from Willow bark as a treatment. Artemisinin which treats chloroquine resistant malaria was derived from wormwood after looking for inspiration in ancient Chinese medicine. There are probably more examples out there where ancient medicine has informed modern medicine.
- __alexs 1y ago
  I am not arguing that plants do not contain interesting chemicals. I am arguing that they are typically used in a ways that are ineffective and the users don't care because they fulfilled their main priority, taking part in a ritual.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    The ritual is the entire evolutionary societal mechanism that allowed us to use plants as medicine, or safely prepare toxic foodstuff. This is the very nature of evolution; not all rituals will make sense. The ones that do, prevail.
    - __alexs 1y ago
      Science is itself a form of ritual for sure. I didn't say we shouldn't have rituals and I support your right to chew on a tree if that's what you want to do.
h3lp 1y ago
Folk medicine that succeeded in rigorous clinical trials is called 'medicine'?
arkey 1y ago
Well that's a bit too much of a generalisation maybe? Yes, there are old ways that have been proven wrong, which were based on ignorance at the time, but there are also old ways which are totally legit and are little known or accepted nowadays based on today's ignorance.
- __alexs 1y ago
  Take turmeric for example. It contains curcumin, a chemical that has quite good evidence for anti-inflammatory properties. However curcumin is not present in turmeric in clinically relevant quantities. People taking turmeric medicinally are not actually interested in the curcumin, if they were they would be taking a concentrated extract. They are interested in the ritual and cultural associations of turmeric. In most cases when we do find evidence for something clinically relevant in traditional medicine we either discover that the effect is something other than it is traditionally associated with and/or that you need to take it at extreme doses for it to do anything at all.
  - arkey 1y ago
    Fair enough. Two points here, then: - From a strictly scientific standpoint, wouldn't it be interesting to properly understand why and how it works? - From a purely practical standpoint, who cares about any of that if not only it works, but is also better and healthier than what you might get prescribed at the doctor's?* * yes, in some cases, not all.
    - __alexs 1y ago
      > From a strictly scientific standpoint, wouldn't it be interesting to properly understand why and how it works? Personally I think it would be, but I think people who actually engage in using traditional medicine couldn't care less how it works beyond making it sound even more magical and spooky. > From a purely practical standpoint, who cares about any of that if not only it works, but is also better and healthier than what you might get prescribed at the doctor's?* I don't think most people engaged in traditional medicine care about it actually being healthier, again because they are first and foremost interested in the ritual and cultural aspects rather than the effectiveness of the active ingredients. My reason for believing this is that people consistently ignore evidence that their favourite magical plant does nothing. And that even when there is evidence to support it, they frequently ignore all findings about effective doses and treatment plans in favour of doing the "natural" thing like making into tea or putting it in orifices you aren't meant to put plants in.

I think we should really just stop asking if "the old ways" actually work or not as it seems entirely irrelevant to the people that seek them out most of the time. They are acts of pure ritual.

darth_avocado 1y ago

Some old ways do work and it is worth asking whether they work. Aspirin was infamously drawn from Willow bark as a treatment. Artemisinin which treats chloroquine resistant malaria was derived from wormwood after looking for inspiration in ancient Chinese medicine. There are probably more examples out there where ancient medicine has informed modern medicine.

__alexs 1y ago
I am not arguing that plants do not contain interesting chemicals. I am arguing that they are typically used in a ways that are ineffective and the users don't care because they fulfilled their main priority, taking part in a ritual.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  The ritual is the entire evolutionary societal mechanism that allowed us to use plants as medicine, or safely prepare toxic foodstuff. This is the very nature of evolution; not all rituals will make sense. The ones that do, prevail.
  - __alexs 1y ago
    Science is itself a form of ritual for sure. I didn't say we shouldn't have rituals and I support your right to chew on a tree if that's what you want to do.

h3lp 1y ago

Folk medicine that succeeded in rigorous clinical trials is called 'medicine'?

arkey 1y ago

Well that's a bit too much of a generalisation maybe? Yes, there are old ways that have been proven wrong, which were based on ignorance at the time, but there are also old ways which are totally legit and are little known or accepted nowadays based on today's ignorance.

__alexs 1y ago
Take turmeric for example. It contains curcumin, a chemical that has quite good evidence for anti-inflammatory properties. However curcumin is not present in turmeric in clinically relevant quantities. People taking turmeric medicinally are not actually interested in the curcumin, if they were they would be taking a concentrated extract. They are interested in the ritual and cultural associations of turmeric. In most cases when we do find evidence for something clinically relevant in traditional medicine we either discover that the effect is something other than it is traditionally associated with and/or that you need to take it at extreme doses for it to do anything at all.
- arkey 1y ago
  Fair enough. Two points here, then: - From a strictly scientific standpoint, wouldn't it be interesting to properly understand why and how it works? - From a purely practical standpoint, who cares about any of that if not only it works, but is also better and healthier than what you might get prescribed at the doctor's?* * yes, in some cases, not all.
  - __alexs 1y ago
    > From a strictly scientific standpoint, wouldn't it be interesting to properly understand why and how it works? Personally I think it would be, but I think people who actually engage in using traditional medicine couldn't care less how it works beyond making it sound even more magical and spooky. > From a purely practical standpoint, who cares about any of that if not only it works, but is also better and healthier than what you might get prescribed at the doctor's?* I don't think most people engaged in traditional medicine care about it actually being healthier, again because they are first and foremost interested in the ritual and cultural aspects rather than the effectiveness of the active ingredients. My reason for believing this is that people consistently ignore evidence that their favourite magical plant does nothing. And that even when there is evidence to support it, they frequently ignore all findings about effective doses and treatment plans in favour of doing the "natural" thing like making into tea or putting it in orifices you aren't meant to put plants in.