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It is, but the community has been shrinking in recent years. FWIW, Google Trends shows the hype peaking in 2016, but I doubt that reflects usage as much as buz

It is, but the community has been shrinking in recent years. FWIW, Google Trends shows the hype peaking in 2016, but I doubt that reflects usage as much as buzz. Instead, if you look at the annual State of Clojure survey results, which solicits opinions directly from the community, the number of responders peaked in 2020 at ~2500, and is down to ~1500 for the most recent 2024 survey. - 2020 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-CDBF7CYT7/ - 2024 State of Clojure - https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vjCA_3D_3D/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-hht04mGydwZ6Nqr7N8vj...

puredanger 1y ago
The absolute number of survey respondents is not a good proxy for community size - the survey runs at different times of the year, for different lengths of time, and with different amounts of marketing. The only goal with the survey is to get a representative sample size. We have other sources of data, both public and private, that are better indicators and indicate the community size is likely growing at this time.
- dustingetz 1y ago
  Hi Alex, if you have data that supports a positive Clojure growth narrative please publish it so that I and other consultants/influencers can share the good news in support of our shared mission. The perception of the decline of Clojure is becoming a board-level conversation at unicorn/ish size companies that are or were all-on on Clojure.
adityaathalye 1y ago
A better source: 2024 survey analysis (and results): https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 - 2024 Highlights - Trends Over Time - 2024 New Users - Previous Results Now... If we are pointing out isolated facts to make an argument, I would caution that survey popularity (sensitive to timing, duration, outreach etc.) is less telling---and less statistically significant---than isolated facts like this: > Clojure versions > Clojure 1.12.0 was released in September 2024 and the survey showed rapid uptake, with 58% already using it, and 65% developing or deploying with the prior versions 1.11, and a steep drop-off after that. Clojure’s focus on stability and avoiding breaking changes makes upgrades safe and easy. > Trends (use at work, hobby, and study have all up-trended) > https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#trends https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#tr... > Because this survey has been running since 2010 (thanks to Chas Emerick originally!), we have lots of great longitudinal data and it’s interesting to compare some of the answers over time. > Looking at the question of how Clojure developers use Clojure, we can see this has generally trended more towards using it at work. However, this year we saw an uptick of people using it for hobbies or in their studies:
- KingMob 1y ago
  Everything you quoted is based on percentages of the responders, not absolute numbers. Changing in-group proportions don't say anything about overall usage. E.g., if responder work usage goes up 10%, but 40% fewer people use Clojure, that's still a drop in absolute numbers. Look for the number of responses, and you can see a decline each year after 2020. --- It's possible that the survey may not have been advertised as well, but afaik, it's still posted the same way it always was: announcements on Clojurians, Clojureverse, reddit, etc. I haven't heard of any reason that survey numbers would have been artificially depressed for several years running.
  - adityaathalye 1y ago
    Absolute survey responses are a signal, I don't deny that. But they aren't enough to make the generalisation you are making.
    - KingMob 1y ago
      Fair, but I also mentioned Google Trends. Or, I picked a random, reasonably popular library to check on Clojars: http-kit. The most recent stable release, 2.8.0, which came out last year, has only been downloaded ~600k times. 2.7.0 from 2023 was downloaded ~1.4m times. 2.6.0 from 2022 was dled ~2m times. Ditto for 2.5.3 from 2021. I would have used Clojure itself, but I can't find maven dl statistics. https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.8.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.8.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.7.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.7.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.6.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.6.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.5.3 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.5.3 --- The thing is, I've been seeing little pieces of evidence all over that Clojure is waning, and not much that it's genuinely increasing in popularity. Any individual example doesn't weigh that much, true, but everything seems in the same direction. If people want Clojure to grow, whether because they need job opportunities, a big employee pool, whatever, it starts with a clear assessment of where it's at.
      - puredanger 1y ago

puredanger 1y ago

The absolute number of survey respondents is not a good proxy for community size - the survey runs at different times of the year, for different lengths of time, and with different amounts of marketing. The only goal with the survey is to get a representative sample size. We have other sources of data, both public and private, that are better indicators and indicate the community size is likely growing at this time.

dustingetz 1y ago
Hi Alex, if you have data that supports a positive Clojure growth narrative please publish it so that I and other consultants/influencers can share the good news in support of our shared mission. The perception of the decline of Clojure is becoming a board-level conversation at unicorn/ish size companies that are or were all-on on Clojure.

adityaathalye 1y ago

A better source: 2024 survey analysis (and results): https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024 - 2024 Highlights - Trends Over Time - 2024 New Users - Previous Results Now... If we are pointing out isolated facts to make an argument, I would caution that survey popularity (sensitive to timing, duration, outreach etc.) is less telling---and less statistically significant---than isolated facts like this: > Clojure versions > Clojure 1.12.0 was released in September 2024 and the survey showed rapid uptake, with 58% already using it, and 65% developing or deploying with the prior versions 1.11, and a steep drop-off after that. Clojure’s focus on stability and avoiding breaking changes makes upgrades safe and easy. > Trends (use at work, hobby, and study have all up-trended) > https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#trends https://clojure.org/news/2024/12/02/state-of-clojure-2024#tr... > Because this survey has been running since 2010 (thanks to Chas Emerick originally!), we have lots of great longitudinal data and it’s interesting to compare some of the answers over time. > Looking at the question of how Clojure developers use Clojure, we can see this has generally trended more towards using it at work. However, this year we saw an uptick of people using it for hobbies or in their studies:

KingMob 1y ago
Everything you quoted is based on percentages of the responders, not absolute numbers. Changing in-group proportions don't say anything about overall usage. E.g., if responder work usage goes up 10%, but 40% fewer people use Clojure, that's still a drop in absolute numbers. Look for the number of responses, and you can see a decline each year after 2020. --- It's possible that the survey may not have been advertised as well, but afaik, it's still posted the same way it always was: announcements on Clojurians, Clojureverse, reddit, etc. I haven't heard of any reason that survey numbers would have been artificially depressed for several years running.
- adityaathalye 1y ago
  Absolute survey responses are a signal, I don't deny that. But they aren't enough to make the generalisation you are making.
  - KingMob 1y ago
    Fair, but I also mentioned Google Trends. Or, I picked a random, reasonably popular library to check on Clojars: http-kit. The most recent stable release, 2.8.0, which came out last year, has only been downloaded ~600k times. 2.7.0 from 2023 was downloaded ~1.4m times. 2.6.0 from 2022 was dled ~2m times. Ditto for 2.5.3 from 2021. I would have used Clojure itself, but I can't find maven dl statistics. https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.8.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.8.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.7.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.7.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.6.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.6.0 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.5.3 https://clojars.org/http-kit/versions/2.5.3 --- The thing is, I've been seeing little pieces of evidence all over that Clojure is waning, and not much that it's genuinely increasing in popularity. Any individual example doesn't weigh that much, true, but everything seems in the same direction. If people want Clojure to grow, whether because they need job opportunities, a big employee pool, whatever, it starts with a clear assessment of where it's at.
    - puredanger 1y ago