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This. We're in a tough spot because the know-how has atrophied. We're not making the raw inputs anymore. Since the jobs are low paying, we should create a new

This. We're in a tough spot because the know-how has atrophied. We're not making the raw inputs anymore. Since the jobs are low paying, we should create a new class of worker visa and bring over folks from developing nations to work these jobs. We should build the exact same factories they have in China, but staff them with immigrants from Latin America, Asia, and Africa. The wages wouldn't be great, but we could build the factories in LCOL areas and extend citizenship as an additional carrot. Bringing the factories on shore would let us be prepared for the upside of eventually automating it all. I don't think we can do that unless the factories are already here -- you can't will fully automated factories into existence from nothing, with no demand and no know-how. We can manufacture that demand now if there's enough political will for it. Immigration has always been our real superpower... We should double down and get people to immigrate and work in new factories we spin up within CONUS.

forgotoldacc 1y ago
Not sure if proposing building a underclass of underpaid jobs that we consider below Americans is the answer. A better answer could be to pay them a couple dollars more an hour so the pay isn't awful. There are also loads of areas of the country where people are struggling because mining and manufacturing jobs went away years ago. Cost of living is generally low in those places, so you don't need to pay California wages but it's still an upgrade compared to the opportunities they currently have. And saying "see these manufacturing jobs that your family used to have? The government is giving these only to foreigners and giving them citizenship too" most certainly will not help the growing anti-immigrant tendencies.
mc32 1y ago
They jobs don't pay spectacularly well, but they pay better than Mickey D's and other service jobs, so they would be an upgrade to those jobs. Manufacturing tend to have union rep., if that matters. We have lots of underemployed and people working lousy service jobs --we don't really need to import labor that needs additional customs/social and language training. Interestingly, we favored China's manufacturing over Mexico's "maquilladoras," I think mostly over quality and cost issues due to corruption, lack of education and cartels.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  I think mcdonalds pays shockingly well nowadays, like 20 or 25 an hour some areas. I think paying 30 an hour for manufacturing jobs might hurt the economics of it?
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    sure, it's 20 in California because of a recent law passed saying so. But that's often high CoL areas to begin with. 30/hr for manufacturing is exactly why the US ceded its power to China over the decades. if we care about the economics, we're doomed as soon as China makes a move.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      I live in des moines and I see mcdonalds offering $16/hr here. Probably more as that was a few years ago and I don't read their signs. I know of a town an hour away where manufacturing offers $16hr.
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        Mcdonalds in <shithole city> NJ is 12-17 with 17 being managers who've been there a few cycles. Manufacturing in the same city starts just below $20 and also gets scheduled raises for sticking around.
  - inferiorhuman 1y ago
    Target around here (Bay Area) starts at $20. Regardless, I wouldn't consider below living wage to be "shockingly well". You got used to wage stagnation and are starting to see gentle attempts at countering that.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
>We should build the exact same factories they have in China, but staff them with immigrants from Latin America, Asia, and Africa. The wages wouldn't be great, but we could build the factories in LCOL areas and extend citizenship as an additional carrot. 1. this current adminstration ruined a lot of incentive to want to get citizenship here. The world is watching those citizenships being revoked in real time. The contract is broken. 2. LCOL areas in the US still pay better than many other countrie's middle class jobs. That's why the solution for 30 years was to outsource, not to immigrate talent here to run factories. The US lacks many protections, but the bare minimum is paying federal minimum wage. 3. The thing about LCOL areas is that they lack the resources and funds to start such initiatives. What you're really asking for is for the government to invest 10's, 100's of billions of dollars into a project to create the factories, million more to bring in talent to run the factories in what are often less desirable areas, and then billions more to bring in talent in these still less desirable areas. Even with a supporting administration, this would be a difficult proposal. Costs of Living to some extent are linked to how valuable that land is to begin with; hence, coastlines tend to have more value than arid midwestern desert or bumpy mountainous terrain.
- danaris 1y ago
  > this current adminstration ruined a lot of incentive to want to get citizenship here. The world is watching those citizenships being revoked in real time. This also means that until and unless we can squash this country's fascist tendencies with something approaching permanency, they're never going to trust that such things will be honored again. As things stand, that effectively means that the Republican Party needs to go, and be replaced by something much more center-right. (Or, even better, overhaul our voting system so that a two-party system is no longer effectively mathematically guaranteed.)
analognoise 1y ago
Why don’t we just tax the living shit out of the rich instead? We’re arguing over importing a massive underclass when 5 families control 50% of the wealth and 2 people have private space programs. Let’s just tax the shit out of them, instead?
- RandomBacon 1y ago
  Cool, we just funded the government for a few months, now what?
  - analognoise 1y ago
    Are you saying this would produce $0 is economic activity, and after it was spent “we would be out of rich people” or some such nonsense? That’s explicitly not what the economic research shows. I’ll also point out that DOGE has produced no prosecutions for “waste” - it turns out that Government work might be a net positive in efficiency, cost, and resultant economic activity. In fact I’d argue that Trump (et. al.)’s economic plans have been shown to be disastrous and misguided - watching the economy shrink in real time as Americans fought for arbitrary regressive taxes isn’t how I expected 2025 to go. I’ll also point out you could fund tens of thousands of Government jobs a year for the low, low price of Trump’s corruption. One is economically useful, the other isn’t.
  - replyifuagree 1y ago
    3. ... 4. ... 5. Profit!

forgotoldacc 1y ago

Not sure if proposing building a underclass of underpaid jobs that we consider below Americans is the answer. A better answer could be to pay them a couple dollars more an hour so the pay isn't awful. There are also loads of areas of the country where people are struggling because mining and manufacturing jobs went away years ago. Cost of living is generally low in those places, so you don't need to pay California wages but it's still an upgrade compared to the opportunities they currently have. And saying "see these manufacturing jobs that your family used to have? The government is giving these only to foreigners and giving them citizenship too" most certainly will not help the growing anti-immigrant tendencies.

mc32 1y ago

They jobs don't pay spectacularly well, but they pay better than Mickey D's and other service jobs, so they would be an upgrade to those jobs. Manufacturing tend to have union rep., if that matters. We have lots of underemployed and people working lousy service jobs --we don't really need to import labor that needs additional customs/social and language training. Interestingly, we favored China's manufacturing over Mexico's "maquilladoras," I think mostly over quality and cost issues due to corruption, lack of education and cartels.

nemomarx 1y ago
I think mcdonalds pays shockingly well nowadays, like 20 or 25 an hour some areas. I think paying 30 an hour for manufacturing jobs might hurt the economics of it?
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  sure, it's 20 in California because of a recent law passed saying so. But that's often high CoL areas to begin with. 30/hr for manufacturing is exactly why the US ceded its power to China over the decades. if we care about the economics, we're doomed as soon as China makes a move.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    I live in des moines and I see mcdonalds offering $16/hr here. Probably more as that was a few years ago and I don't read their signs. I know of a town an hour away where manufacturing offers $16hr.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      Mcdonalds in <shithole city> NJ is 12-17 with 17 being managers who've been there a few cycles. Manufacturing in the same city starts just below $20 and also gets scheduled raises for sticking around.
- inferiorhuman 1y ago
  Target around here (Bay Area) starts at $20. Regardless, I wouldn't consider below living wage to be "shockingly well". You got used to wage stagnation and are starting to see gentle attempts at countering that.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

>We should build the exact same factories they have in China, but staff them with immigrants from Latin America, Asia, and Africa. The wages wouldn't be great, but we could build the factories in LCOL areas and extend citizenship as an additional carrot. 1. this current adminstration ruined a lot of incentive to want to get citizenship here. The world is watching those citizenships being revoked in real time. The contract is broken. 2. LCOL areas in the US still pay better than many other countrie's middle class jobs. That's why the solution for 30 years was to outsource, not to immigrate talent here to run factories. The US lacks many protections, but the bare minimum is paying federal minimum wage. 3. The thing about LCOL areas is that they lack the resources and funds to start such initiatives. What you're really asking for is for the government to invest 10's, 100's of billions of dollars into a project to create the factories, million more to bring in talent to run the factories in what are often less desirable areas, and then billions more to bring in talent in these still less desirable areas. Even with a supporting administration, this would be a difficult proposal. Costs of Living to some extent are linked to how valuable that land is to begin with; hence, coastlines tend to have more value than arid midwestern desert or bumpy mountainous terrain.

danaris 1y ago
> this current adminstration ruined a lot of incentive to want to get citizenship here. The world is watching those citizenships being revoked in real time. This also means that until and unless we can squash this country's fascist tendencies with something approaching permanency, they're never going to trust that such things will be honored again. As things stand, that effectively means that the Republican Party needs to go, and be replaced by something much more center-right. (Or, even better, overhaul our voting system so that a two-party system is no longer effectively mathematically guaranteed.)

analognoise 1y ago

Why don’t we just tax the living shit out of the rich instead? We’re arguing over importing a massive underclass when 5 families control 50% of the wealth and 2 people have private space programs. Let’s just tax the shit out of them, instead?

RandomBacon 1y ago
Cool, we just funded the government for a few months, now what?
- analognoise 1y ago
  Are you saying this would produce $0 is economic activity, and after it was spent “we would be out of rich people” or some such nonsense? That’s explicitly not what the economic research shows. I’ll also point out that DOGE has produced no prosecutions for “waste” - it turns out that Government work might be a net positive in efficiency, cost, and resultant economic activity. In fact I’d argue that Trump (et. al.)’s economic plans have been shown to be disastrous and misguided - watching the economy shrink in real time as Americans fought for arbitrary regressive taxes isn’t how I expected 2025 to go. I’ll also point out you could fund tens of thousands of Government jobs a year for the low, low price of Trump’s corruption. One is economically useful, the other isn’t.
- replyifuagree 1y ago
  3. ... 4. ... 5. Profit!