3 ms·

I think both the student and school should be on the hook for the loan. If the student is successful and does not pay, the school has legal rights. If the stude

by ivape 1y ago

I think both the student and school should be on the hook for the loan. If the student is successful and does not pay, the school has legal rights. If the student is unsuccessful, then the student has legal rights. Both can sue each other for the full cost of the loan. I still don’t know why there aren’t mass scale class action lawsuits against higher education for certain degrees.

stonogo 1y ago
The school isn't issuing the loans. How exactly do you think student loans work?
- bluGill 1y ago
  The banks should demand the school take responsibility as part of agreeing to the loan. if the degree is for fun not a job that is fine - but as the taxpaper subsidising this all I only want to help those who will pay off my investment (or those who stasticaly would have had not whatever unexpected disaster happened)
  - stonogo 1y ago
    You appear to have mistaken the purpose of a degree. It's not a job ticket. The school gave you what you paid for. Your transaction is complete.
    - lostmsu 1y ago
      Then they can buy insurance to cover that.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      As a taxpayer I support degrees as job tickets. There are plenty of other things to do with a degree and I'm fine with them - but I have better use for my money than to give degrees to those who won't use them productively.
      - mixmastamyk 1y ago
        Planned economies have not been very successful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy
- dml2135 1y ago
  The loans should not be given out, but also schools should not be charging the sort of tuition that they do for professional degrees, for professions that do not provide a salary that could pay for said tuition.
  - stonogo 1y ago
    University degrees are not coupons for jobs, regardless of what someone told you when you were little. They never have been.
    - dml2135 1y ago
      I’m specifically talking about professional, graduate degrees. Undergrad is a different matter. A professional degree should give you an opportunity to increase your income in proportion to the cost of the degree. If that is not even close to being the case, as is what happens with a lot of degrees at elite schools, then I’d call that what it is — a scam.
      - dahart 1y ago
        The stats from the US FED show that people with professional degrees earn approximately 3x what people without degrees make, and people with undergrad degrees earn - on average - 2x what people without degrees make. Your hypothesis is somewhat flawed.
        dml2135 1y ago
        No, it’s not flawed and it’s not a hypothesis — I’m speaking from specific knowledge and experience regarding particular degrees. Those averages include things like medical school for doctors and law school for lawyers. Tuition and expected salary are more aligned there. Where tuition and salary are not aligned are fields like the humanities and social sciences. At top graduate schools for those fields you will have tuitions in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, with average salary expectations far below that. The only way that it makes financial sense to get a degree like that is if you are independently wealthy to begin with, but these schools will not tell you that and will cheerfully direct you to take on a ruinous amount of debt.
- ivape 1y ago
  You’re a drug abuser, I’m a drug dealer. I can’t sell you drugs without money. I have a friend who can give you a loan if you convince him, then you can pay me. I know the drug dealer is not issuing the loan, but the dealer accepts and facilitates it. I’ll make it clearer: I’m a drug dealer that doesn’t care where you get your money. If you rob and kill someone and bring me the money, I will take it. So how does the dealer facilitate this entire institution? They take the money, simple as that. If a drug dealer was a legal entity, they’d be sued into oblivion. These schools may as well be selling kilos of coke. I’ll go one further: I’m a drug dealer, currently you have no drug addiction. I cannot make money if you don’t have an addiction. Let me convince you need to take this drug. The dealer creates the market for the loan too. Higher education needs you to take the loan.
dml2135 1y ago
For real, it’s basically predatory. And I’m not talking about BS degrees from crap online schools. What the Ivy Leagues charge for certain graduate degrees in the social sciences is basically a huge scam. There is absolutely no viable pathway to pay back the $200,000+ cost of a graduate degree in social sciences from a school like Columbia or Harvard, other than public service loan forgiveness, if you actually want to work in the field that the degree ostensibly prepares you for. I know people that got grad degrees like this and then ended up going to coding bootcamps so they could work in tech to pay them off.
wakawaka28 1y ago
Schools never guarantee outcomes. They can't actually. Education is an investment that is sensitive to market conditions, and unconditional loans for any form of study regardless of market conditions was always stupid. How about the government stops funding stupid shit on purpose? I guess that will make a bunch of liberal arts majors upset though.
bentt 1y ago
Yes it is silly that the school has no skin in this game.

by ivape 1y ago

stonogo 1y ago

The school isn't issuing the loans. How exactly do you think student loans work?

bluGill 1y ago
The banks should demand the school take responsibility as part of agreeing to the loan. if the degree is for fun not a job that is fine - but as the taxpaper subsidising this all I only want to help those who will pay off my investment (or those who stasticaly would have had not whatever unexpected disaster happened)
- stonogo 1y ago
  You appear to have mistaken the purpose of a degree. It's not a job ticket. The school gave you what you paid for. Your transaction is complete.
  - lostmsu 1y ago
    Then they can buy insurance to cover that.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    As a taxpayer I support degrees as job tickets. There are plenty of other things to do with a degree and I'm fine with them - but I have better use for my money than to give degrees to those who won't use them productively.
    - mixmastamyk 1y ago
      Planned economies have not been very successful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy
dml2135 1y ago
The loans should not be given out, but also schools should not be charging the sort of tuition that they do for professional degrees, for professions that do not provide a salary that could pay for said tuition.
- stonogo 1y ago
  University degrees are not coupons for jobs, regardless of what someone told you when you were little. They never have been.
  - dml2135 1y ago
    I’m specifically talking about professional, graduate degrees. Undergrad is a different matter. A professional degree should give you an opportunity to increase your income in proportion to the cost of the degree. If that is not even close to being the case, as is what happens with a lot of degrees at elite schools, then I’d call that what it is — a scam.
    - dahart 1y ago
      The stats from the US FED show that people with professional degrees earn approximately 3x what people without degrees make, and people with undergrad degrees earn - on average - 2x what people without degrees make. Your hypothesis is somewhat flawed.
      - dml2135 1y ago
        No, it’s not flawed and it’s not a hypothesis — I’m speaking from specific knowledge and experience regarding particular degrees. Those averages include things like medical school for doctors and law school for lawyers. Tuition and expected salary are more aligned there. Where tuition and salary are not aligned are fields like the humanities and social sciences. At top graduate schools for those fields you will have tuitions in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, with average salary expectations far below that. The only way that it makes financial sense to get a degree like that is if you are independently wealthy to begin with, but these schools will not tell you that and will cheerfully direct you to take on a ruinous amount of debt.
ivape 1y ago
You’re a drug abuser, I’m a drug dealer. I can’t sell you drugs without money. I have a friend who can give you a loan if you convince him, then you can pay me. I know the drug dealer is not issuing the loan, but the dealer accepts and facilitates it. I’ll make it clearer: I’m a drug dealer that doesn’t care where you get your money. If you rob and kill someone and bring me the money, I will take it. So how does the dealer facilitate this entire institution? They take the money, simple as that. If a drug dealer was a legal entity, they’d be sued into oblivion. These schools may as well be selling kilos of coke. I’ll go one further: I’m a drug dealer, currently you have no drug addiction. I cannot make money if you don’t have an addiction. Let me convince you need to take this drug. The dealer creates the market for the loan too. Higher education needs you to take the loan.

dml2135 1y ago

For real, it’s basically predatory. And I’m not talking about BS degrees from crap online schools. What the Ivy Leagues charge for certain graduate degrees in the social sciences is basically a huge scam. There is absolutely no viable pathway to pay back the $200,000+ cost of a graduate degree in social sciences from a school like Columbia or Harvard, other than public service loan forgiveness, if you actually want to work in the field that the degree ostensibly prepares you for. I know people that got grad degrees like this and then ended up going to coding bootcamps so they could work in tech to pay them off.

wakawaka28 1y ago

Schools never guarantee outcomes. They can't actually. Education is an investment that is sensitive to market conditions, and unconditional loans for any form of study regardless of market conditions was always stupid. How about the government stops funding stupid shit on purpose? I guess that will make a bunch of liberal arts majors upset though.

bentt 1y ago

Yes it is silly that the school has no skin in this game.