5 ms·

I suspect that people who expect and look forward to working +50 hours/week would perform much better than people who are guilted into it. Also sounds like they

by shazow 14y ago

I suspect that people who expect and look forward to working +50 hours/week would perform much better than people who are guilted into it. Also sounds like they're well compensated for it. I liked his "special forces" analogy.

wazoox 14y ago
People who want to be pilots love flying. Nonetheless they're not allowed to fly more than a number of hours, because passion, motivation and whatever you want won't prevent you from messing up when you're tired. Amphetamines were invented for the military and particularly the special ops, mind you. As you know they come with their problems, too. So please stop bullshitting yourself. As much as I like and respect Elon Musk, when he says this he's full of shit, plain and simple. Asking mechanics to work long hours building cars is terrible management. No wonder he finds defaults on each and every car.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  You may be right. Maybe working 50+ hours a week is always a net negative. Maybe a sane, family-friendly work environment will, in fact, maximize both the happiness and well-being of individual contributors and the productivity of the organization as a whole. But you know what? Nobody told the kids in the garage down the street. You know... the ones who are working 60+ hours a week, and who are about to kick your company's ass, because there's no place on Earth they'd rather be than in that garage.
  - wazoox 14y ago
    > the ones who are working 60+ hours a week, and who are about to kick your company's ass, because there's no place on Earth they'd rather be than in that garage. Because they're 20 years old, and they'll do that only for a limited time anyway because even the energy from youth won't protect them from burnout. This is nice, heart-warming story we like to believe, but this is anecdote. In general, people work efficiently about 40 hours a week for long periods (months or years). By the way, old asses like me have had their fair share of being in the office from 9AM to 22PM and you know what? While you're congratulating with your co-workers on what a bunch of hard-working supermen you are, you aren't actually getting anything done. It's incredibly hard to get things done 7 to 8 hours a day, it demands incredible energy and commitment; I don't pretend being even capable of this more than once or twice a week. Yes, I think that programming efficiently 40 hours a week is already nearly super-human, unless you're incredibly passionate and it's incredibly rewarding.
    - prodigal_erik 14y ago
      Eight hours per day came out of studies of rote assembly line labor. Has there been evidence that's also the optimum for a creative desk job?
      - marvin 14y ago
        I don't think this has been established. But regardless, wazoox is saying that even eight hours a day (of real, focused work that doesn't involve checking Hacker News or Facebook all the time) is too much for most people over a long period of time. It's all anecdotal evidence - I guess you could pull off a bit more if your job is your life. I've never met anyone who meets this criterion, but maybe someone else has.
      - GeneralMaximus 14y ago
        I've heard four to six hours a day, but I cannot cite sources. This Google query returns some promising results but you'll have to dig deeper than this for scientific studies: https://www.google.com/search?q=six+hours+per+day+creative+work https://www.google.com/search?q=six+hours+per+day+creative+w...
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- shazow 14y ago
  > People who want to be pilots love flying. Nonetheless they're not allowed to fly more than a number of hours, because passion, motivation and whatever you want won't prevent you from messing up when you're tired. Correct me if I'm wrong but quick googling shows that pilots are restricted to 100 hours of flight time per month by the FAA. That's 25 hours per week. Perhaps flight time is not exactly comparable to building cars time? > So please stop bullshitting yourself. I don't appreciate that. I have friends who can eat twice the calories each meal that I have and don't gain a pound. Some of them sleep 5 hours per night and they're perfectly rested. Some of my friends spend 60 hours a week at work and still always feel behind. Turns out that not everyone is built the same. I can't have a slice of pizza every day. I need at least 8.5 hours of sleep per night to function. I can accomplish as much work in 30 hours as some of my peers take 60 hours to do. I can't sustain long work hours unless I'm working for myself, but not everyone is built the same.
  - wazoox 14y ago
    > Perhaps flight time is not exactly comparable to building cars time? It's not comparable in the consequences of you messing up because you're tired (150 deaths vs a misaligned rubber joint that leaks). However the underlying principle remains; when people work too much, they get tired and they makes many more errors. So it Musk wants absolutely perfect cars, he must gives more time off to the workers. Basic common sense supported by experience and scientific studies. > > So please stop bullshitting yourself. I don't appreciate that. Sorry for the formulation, it wasn't targeting you, but this quite US-specific mix of protestant and macho ethos of hard work pushed to the absurd. Many, many people are dead sure _they_ can work so much more than the next guy and stay efficient. > I have friends who can eat twice the calories each meal that I have and don't gain a pound. Some of them sleep 5 hours per night and they're perfectly rested. Some of my friends spend 60 hours a week at work and still always feel behind. Yes, and some people can drink a bottle of wine everyday and never get cirrhosis, etc. Of course we're all different, and there probably are people that can work 60 (or maybe 80) hours a week and don't be tired and inefficient. However you can't count on that, thus it's not reasonable to build a business model betting that you'll only get absolutely exceptional people with nearly super-human abilities in your team. Particularly when the number of employees is in the thousands (from the article Tesla currently has 2800 employees).
- joelrunyon 14y ago
  I think his "special forces" analogy is quite good. Sure, most people won't join the military. Sure, out of those that do, most won't be joining the special forces. Sure, those that do join the special forces know it's "above and beyond", an added level of stress and quite difficult to do for 40+ years, but they do it anyways. Why? Probably because they're compelled by the greater mission and they're willing to do it in spite of the tradeoffs. Oh, and they're the best of the best, so they're probably okay with trading some rest for the work they're putting in. Yes, most people won't hold up under those conditions, but special forces recruiters aren't looking for "most people". I suspect Musk isn't either.
- joelrunyon 14y ago
  Also, while you may think 40 hour work weeks are the optimal time, you'll have to admit it's a completely arbitrary number. Elon himself, first and foremost, is proving your assertion wrong by easily working more, while simultaneously running 2 (I would suggest) of the most important emerging companies around. Sure, other aspects of his life may suffer, but he's willing to make that tradeoff. Don't try to project your personal limitations onto someone else or create a population generality from a personal anecdote.
  - wazoox 14y ago
    > Elon himself, first and foremost, is proving your assertion wrong by easily working more, while simultaneously running 2 (I would suggest) of the most important emerging companies around. See my other comments. As a CEO, spending an afternoon chit-chatting with journalists, then having a filmed interview with Kevin Rose, then more chit-chatting qualifies as several hours of work. It's not remotely as strenuous as carefully aligning car doors for the same duration, though. Or writing down the specification of an important program without any interruption for facebook or HN. It's much, much easier to work 60 to 100 hours a week as a CEO (because your work includes things like golfing with customers or dining with investors). > Don't try to project your personal limitations onto someone else or create a population generality from a personal anecdote. I don't deny Musk the ability to sleep 3 hours each night and work like a slave 16 hours a day, I really have no idea. However when as the CEO of a ~3000 people company he says he's expecting everyone to work 50-60 hours week, particularly auto workers, I pretend he's making a huge, grave management mistake.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  I would be willing to work ~50/60 hours a week if the company accommodated me by helping me with my other goals, such as maid & laundry service, the kind of physical training I would like that I could do during work hours, a cook who would cook my weight loss diet to my specifications and somebody who would buy things on a list for me from target or wherever. That saves me more than the 10/20 hours extra they ask from me. Big clincher is to my specifications, which a lot of places cannot/wont do.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- 6ren 14y ago
  Some people are working seven days a week – I do – but for a lot of people, working seven days a week is not sustainable.
MarkMc 14y ago
I don't think the special forces analogy holds water. Consider this hypothetical example: If special forces train for 40 hours per week then they have a 70% chance of rescuing the hostages, but if they train 50 hours per week they have an 80% chance of success. Is it worth the extra cost? Absolutely. Having one special forces team with 80% chance of success is better than two teams with a 70% chance. But now imagine that my job is to install headlights into a car chassis. If I work 40 hours per week then I can install 70 headlights, and if I work 50 hours per week then I can install 80 headlights. Is it worth the extra cost? No - two people installing 70 headlights per week is better than one person installing 80 per week. Having said all that, it may be that "willingness to work 50 hours per week" is a good indication of passion and energy. If you ask a potential employee, "are you passionate?" the reply will always be "Yes". But if you ask, "Are you willing to work 50 hours per week" then you'll be more likely to get someone who loves the work.

by shazow 14y ago

wazoox 14y ago

People who want to be pilots love flying. Nonetheless they're not allowed to fly more than a number of hours, because passion, motivation and whatever you want won't prevent you from messing up when you're tired. Amphetamines were invented for the military and particularly the special ops, mind you. As you know they come with their problems, too. So please stop bullshitting yourself. As much as I like and respect Elon Musk, when he says this he's full of shit, plain and simple. Asking mechanics to work long hours building cars is terrible management. No wonder he finds defaults on each and every car.

CamperBob2 14y ago
You may be right. Maybe working 50+ hours a week is always a net negative. Maybe a sane, family-friendly work environment will, in fact, maximize both the happiness and well-being of individual contributors and the productivity of the organization as a whole. But you know what? Nobody told the kids in the garage down the street. You know... the ones who are working 60+ hours a week, and who are about to kick your company's ass, because there's no place on Earth they'd rather be than in that garage.
- wazoox 14y ago
  > the ones who are working 60+ hours a week, and who are about to kick your company's ass, because there's no place on Earth they'd rather be than in that garage. Because they're 20 years old, and they'll do that only for a limited time anyway because even the energy from youth won't protect them from burnout. This is nice, heart-warming story we like to believe, but this is anecdote. In general, people work efficiently about 40 hours a week for long periods (months or years). By the way, old asses like me have had their fair share of being in the office from 9AM to 22PM and you know what? While you're congratulating with your co-workers on what a bunch of hard-working supermen you are, you aren't actually getting anything done. It's incredibly hard to get things done 7 to 8 hours a day, it demands incredible energy and commitment; I don't pretend being even capable of this more than once or twice a week. Yes, I think that programming efficiently 40 hours a week is already nearly super-human, unless you're incredibly passionate and it's incredibly rewarding.
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    Eight hours per day came out of studies of rote assembly line labor. Has there been evidence that's also the optimum for a creative desk job?
    - marvin 14y ago
      I don't think this has been established. But regardless, wazoox is saying that even eight hours a day (of real, focused work that doesn't involve checking Hacker News or Facebook all the time) is too much for most people over a long period of time. It's all anecdotal evidence - I guess you could pull off a bit more if your job is your life. I've never met anyone who meets this criterion, but maybe someone else has.
    - GeneralMaximus 14y ago
      I've heard four to six hours a day, but I cannot cite sources. This Google query returns some promising results but you'll have to dig deeper than this for scientific studies: https://www.google.com/search?q=six+hours+per+day+creative+work https://www.google.com/search?q=six+hours+per+day+creative+w...
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
shazow 14y ago
> People who want to be pilots love flying. Nonetheless they're not allowed to fly more than a number of hours, because passion, motivation and whatever you want won't prevent you from messing up when you're tired. Correct me if I'm wrong but quick googling shows that pilots are restricted to 100 hours of flight time per month by the FAA. That's 25 hours per week. Perhaps flight time is not exactly comparable to building cars time? > So please stop bullshitting yourself. I don't appreciate that. I have friends who can eat twice the calories each meal that I have and don't gain a pound. Some of them sleep 5 hours per night and they're perfectly rested. Some of my friends spend 60 hours a week at work and still always feel behind. Turns out that not everyone is built the same. I can't have a slice of pizza every day. I need at least 8.5 hours of sleep per night to function. I can accomplish as much work in 30 hours as some of my peers take 60 hours to do. I can't sustain long work hours unless I'm working for myself, but not everyone is built the same.
- wazoox 14y ago
  > Perhaps flight time is not exactly comparable to building cars time? It's not comparable in the consequences of you messing up because you're tired (150 deaths vs a misaligned rubber joint that leaks). However the underlying principle remains; when people work too much, they get tired and they makes many more errors. So it Musk wants absolutely perfect cars, he must gives more time off to the workers. Basic common sense supported by experience and scientific studies. > > So please stop bullshitting yourself. I don't appreciate that. Sorry for the formulation, it wasn't targeting you, but this quite US-specific mix of protestant and macho ethos of hard work pushed to the absurd. Many, many people are dead sure _they_ can work so much more than the next guy and stay efficient. > I have friends who can eat twice the calories each meal that I have and don't gain a pound. Some of them sleep 5 hours per night and they're perfectly rested. Some of my friends spend 60 hours a week at work and still always feel behind. Yes, and some people can drink a bottle of wine everyday and never get cirrhosis, etc. Of course we're all different, and there probably are people that can work 60 (or maybe 80) hours a week and don't be tired and inefficient. However you can't count on that, thus it's not reasonable to build a business model betting that you'll only get absolutely exceptional people with nearly super-human abilities in your team. Particularly when the number of employees is in the thousands (from the article Tesla currently has 2800 employees).
joelrunyon 14y ago
I think his "special forces" analogy is quite good. Sure, most people won't join the military. Sure, out of those that do, most won't be joining the special forces. Sure, those that do join the special forces know it's "above and beyond", an added level of stress and quite difficult to do for 40+ years, but they do it anyways. Why? Probably because they're compelled by the greater mission and they're willing to do it in spite of the tradeoffs. Oh, and they're the best of the best, so they're probably okay with trading some rest for the work they're putting in. Yes, most people won't hold up under those conditions, but special forces recruiters aren't looking for "most people". I suspect Musk isn't either.
joelrunyon 14y ago
Also, while you may think 40 hour work weeks are the optimal time, you'll have to admit it's a completely arbitrary number. Elon himself, first and foremost, is proving your assertion wrong by easily working more, while simultaneously running 2 (I would suggest) of the most important emerging companies around. Sure, other aspects of his life may suffer, but he's willing to make that tradeoff. Don't try to project your personal limitations onto someone else or create a population generality from a personal anecdote.
- wazoox 14y ago
  > Elon himself, first and foremost, is proving your assertion wrong by easily working more, while simultaneously running 2 (I would suggest) of the most important emerging companies around. See my other comments. As a CEO, spending an afternoon chit-chatting with journalists, then having a filmed interview with Kevin Rose, then more chit-chatting qualifies as several hours of work. It's not remotely as strenuous as carefully aligning car doors for the same duration, though. Or writing down the specification of an important program without any interruption for facebook or HN. It's much, much easier to work 60 to 100 hours a week as a CEO (because your work includes things like golfing with customers or dining with investors). > Don't try to project your personal limitations onto someone else or create a population generality from a personal anecdote. I don't deny Musk the ability to sleep 3 hours each night and work like a slave 16 hours a day, I really have no idea. However when as the CEO of a ~3000 people company he says he's expecting everyone to work 50-60 hours week, particularly auto workers, I pretend he's making a huge, grave management mistake.
mahyarm 14y ago
I would be willing to work ~50/60 hours a week if the company accommodated me by helping me with my other goals, such as maid & laundry service, the kind of physical training I would like that I could do during work hours, a cook who would cook my weight loss diet to my specifications and somebody who would buy things on a list for me from target or wherever. That saves me more than the 10/20 hours extra they ask from me. Big clincher is to my specifications, which a lot of places cannot/wont do.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
6ren 14y ago
Some people are working seven days a week – I do – but for a lot of people, working seven days a week is not sustainable.

MarkMc 14y ago

I don't think the special forces analogy holds water. Consider this hypothetical example: If special forces train for 40 hours per week then they have a 70% chance of rescuing the hostages, but if they train 50 hours per week they have an 80% chance of success. Is it worth the extra cost? Absolutely. Having one special forces team with 80% chance of success is better than two teams with a 70% chance. But now imagine that my job is to install headlights into a car chassis. If I work 40 hours per week then I can install 70 headlights, and if I work 50 hours per week then I can install 80 headlights. Is it worth the extra cost? No - two people installing 70 headlights per week is better than one person installing 80 per week. Having said all that, it may be that "willingness to work 50 hours per week" is a good indication of passion and energy. If you ask a potential employee, "are you passionate?" the reply will always be "Yes". But if you ask, "Are you willing to work 50 hours per week" then you'll be more likely to get someone who loves the work.