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Hard agree. I am highly sympathetic to the numerous tragedies that have afflicted the modern Palestinians. They have only knowing suffering at the hands of over

Hard agree. I am highly sympathetic to the numerous tragedies that have afflicted the modern Palestinians. They have only knowing suffering at the hands of overwhelming adversaries from the British colonial rule to the rule of western armed Eastern European terrorist gangs. That being said if we take in Palestinians we are effectively advancing the self proclaimed objective of the Israeli government: ethnic cleansing. The west should not take them in and the west should instead sanction Israel to the point of crippling their economy. Only then will the Israelis stop the abuse.

s5300 1y ago
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alephnerd 1y ago
> western armed Eastern European terrorist gangs The majority of Israelis (45%) are Mizrahi or Eastern Sephardi [0] - primarily Moroccan, Iraqi, Yemeni, Syrian, Algerian, Iranian, Kurdish, Azeri, Tajik, and Egyptian in origin. The rest are Arab (20%) or Ashkenazi (33%) but these are overwhelmingly Soviet-era Jews who faced antisemitism during the Soviet era. You also have 1% who are Ethiopian in origin and 1% who are Indian (primarily Marathi) in origin. The most rightwing Israelis are themselves 1.5 generation Mizrahi, such as Ben Gvir (Kurdish) and Karhi (Tunisian). The same way Palestinians made homeless due to the 1948 war continue to resent Israel, similarly Mizrahi families continue to resent and distrust the Muslim countries their parents and grandparents were forced to leave from their mohallas. Assuming Israel is overwhelmingly Ashkenazi is itself white normative and neocolonialist in nature. > colonial rule Same for plenty of Jews in Eastern countries. For example, the Farhud [1] in Iraq as Iraqi Sunnis viewed Iraqi Jews as collaborationists with the British (this was also caused by Nazi propaganda during WW2) and the 1945 Libyan Riots [2] instigated by British occupation forces to coopt Libyan Sunnis. [0] - https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic... [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud [2] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tripolitania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tr...
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  >> western armed Eastern European terrorist gangs > The majority of Israelis (45%) are Mizrahi or Eastern Sephardi That's irrelevant to the OP's point. Mizrahi Jews only started arriving after Israel was founded. The people who founded Israel were almost 100% Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from Central and Eastern Europe.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > The people who founded Israel were almost 100% Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from Central and Eastern Europe. Israelis like Geulah Cohen, Moshe Barzani, Eliyahu Hakim, Shimon Tzabar, Eliyahu Bet-Zuri, Mordechai Alkahi, Avshalom Haviv, Meir Nakar, Eliezer Kashani, and Shmuel Tankus were all prominent Mizrahi leaders and commanders in Lehi, Irgun, and the Haganah. Kurdish, Iraqi, Levantine, and Turkish Jews had been a prominent demographic in what became Israel well before 1948 due to it's former Ottoman status along with communal incidents in Kurdistan, Iraq, Syria, and Turkiye well before 1948. In addition, in the late 19th and early 20th century, most of the Ashkenazi who arrived in the Levant at the time aligned with "Ottomanization" [0] or assimilating into Ottoman Turkish culture and dropping any trappings of European culture, hence David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi becoming students at the Dârülfünûn-ı Şâhâne in Istanbul and assimilating into Turkish culture during their formative years. The Labor Zionist movement tended to be primarily Ashkenazi, but they were not alone in founding Israel. Mizrahis were overrepresented in the Irgun and Lehi, both of who's political wings became the Likud. [0] - https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/16111/13/16111%20TALBOT_Jews_Be_Ottomans_2016.pdf https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/16111/13/16111%20TALBOT_Jew...
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      The existence of individual Arab Jews in Israel in 1948 does not change the point that the founders of Israel were almost all Ashkenazi Jews. Almost every important Israeli politician in the founding years was Ashkenazi (and to this day, every prime minister has been Ashkenazi, surprisingly enough). Yes, you can name various individual members of the pre-state militias / terrorist groups who were not Ashenazi, but they were a tiny minority in a movement dominated by people from Central / Eastern Europe.
apical_dendrite 1y ago
In this case, we're talking about a small number of people who need specialized medical treatment. Denying medical care for people who need it based on some principle is inhumane.
- DSingularity 1y ago
  I don’t think you realize how this works in practice. In theory it will be for highest need. In practice various parties will find ways to make sure every applicant meets the bar. In theory it’s temporary. In practice majority will find ways to stay. It will a sudden exodus of 100.000 Gazans to the US. Israel wins as they will probably in the end kill 10-20% of the population (we know that they’ve killed 5% but many organizations estimate that at least as many are under the ruins and there are excess deaths to count too eg those starved because of Israel’s blockade), they will maim 10-20-%, and finally find ways to expel most of the remaining to various countries.
moi2388 1y ago
[flagged]
wat10000 1y ago
These are visitor visas. We’re not “taking in” the recipients.
- DSingularity 1y ago
  Do you have any doubt that they will strive to go from visitor to permanent? It’s not as hard as you think. Bottom line: why can’t we compel Israel to meet their medical needs? Or for example to stop bombing hospitals in Gaza so they don’t have to come here for need?
  - wat10000 1y ago
    Do you have any evidence they’re staying? Israel’s responsibility isn’t really relevant to visas being issued for medical care being paid for by private charity.

s5300 1y ago

[dead]

alephnerd 1y ago

> western armed Eastern European terrorist gangs The majority of Israelis (45%) are Mizrahi or Eastern Sephardi [0] - primarily Moroccan, Iraqi, Yemeni, Syrian, Algerian, Iranian, Kurdish, Azeri, Tajik, and Egyptian in origin. The rest are Arab (20%) or Ashkenazi (33%) but these are overwhelmingly Soviet-era Jews who faced antisemitism during the Soviet era. You also have 1% who are Ethiopian in origin and 1% who are Indian (primarily Marathi) in origin. The most rightwing Israelis are themselves 1.5 generation Mizrahi, such as Ben Gvir (Kurdish) and Karhi (Tunisian). The same way Palestinians made homeless due to the 1948 war continue to resent Israel, similarly Mizrahi families continue to resent and distrust the Muslim countries their parents and grandparents were forced to leave from their mohallas. Assuming Israel is overwhelmingly Ashkenazi is itself white normative and neocolonialist in nature. > colonial rule Same for plenty of Jews in Eastern countries. For example, the Farhud [1] in Iraq as Iraqi Sunnis viewed Iraqi Jews as collaborationists with the British (this was also caused by Nazi propaganda during WW2) and the 1945 Libyan Riots [2] instigated by British occupation forces to coopt Libyan Sunnis. [0] - https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic... [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud [2] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tripolitania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tr...

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
>> western armed Eastern European terrorist gangs > The majority of Israelis (45%) are Mizrahi or Eastern Sephardi That's irrelevant to the OP's point. Mizrahi Jews only started arriving after Israel was founded. The people who founded Israel were almost 100% Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from Central and Eastern Europe.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > The people who founded Israel were almost 100% Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from Central and Eastern Europe. Israelis like Geulah Cohen, Moshe Barzani, Eliyahu Hakim, Shimon Tzabar, Eliyahu Bet-Zuri, Mordechai Alkahi, Avshalom Haviv, Meir Nakar, Eliezer Kashani, and Shmuel Tankus were all prominent Mizrahi leaders and commanders in Lehi, Irgun, and the Haganah. Kurdish, Iraqi, Levantine, and Turkish Jews had been a prominent demographic in what became Israel well before 1948 due to it's former Ottoman status along with communal incidents in Kurdistan, Iraq, Syria, and Turkiye well before 1948. In addition, in the late 19th and early 20th century, most of the Ashkenazi who arrived in the Levant at the time aligned with "Ottomanization" [0] or assimilating into Ottoman Turkish culture and dropping any trappings of European culture, hence David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi becoming students at the Dârülfünûn-ı Şâhâne in Istanbul and assimilating into Turkish culture during their formative years. The Labor Zionist movement tended to be primarily Ashkenazi, but they were not alone in founding Israel. Mizrahis were overrepresented in the Irgun and Lehi, both of who's political wings became the Likud. [0] - https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/16111/13/16111%20TALBOT_Jews_Be_Ottomans_2016.pdf https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/16111/13/16111%20TALBOT_Jew...
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    The existence of individual Arab Jews in Israel in 1948 does not change the point that the founders of Israel were almost all Ashkenazi Jews. Almost every important Israeli politician in the founding years was Ashkenazi (and to this day, every prime minister has been Ashkenazi, surprisingly enough). Yes, you can name various individual members of the pre-state militias / terrorist groups who were not Ashenazi, but they were a tiny minority in a movement dominated by people from Central / Eastern Europe.

apical_dendrite 1y ago

In this case, we're talking about a small number of people who need specialized medical treatment. Denying medical care for people who need it based on some principle is inhumane.

DSingularity 1y ago
I don’t think you realize how this works in practice. In theory it will be for highest need. In practice various parties will find ways to make sure every applicant meets the bar. In theory it’s temporary. In practice majority will find ways to stay. It will a sudden exodus of 100.000 Gazans to the US. Israel wins as they will probably in the end kill 10-20% of the population (we know that they’ve killed 5% but many organizations estimate that at least as many are under the ruins and there are excess deaths to count too eg those starved because of Israel’s blockade), they will maim 10-20-%, and finally find ways to expel most of the remaining to various countries.

moi2388 1y ago

[flagged]

wat10000 1y ago

These are visitor visas. We’re not “taking in” the recipients.

DSingularity 1y ago
Do you have any doubt that they will strive to go from visitor to permanent? It’s not as hard as you think. Bottom line: why can’t we compel Israel to meet their medical needs? Or for example to stop bombing hospitals in Gaza so they don’t have to come here for need?
- wat10000 1y ago
  Do you have any evidence they’re staying? Israel’s responsibility isn’t really relevant to visas being issued for medical care being paid for by private charity.