5 ms·

I'm beyond ok with this! Let backpressure into the market! It's the ultimate incentive for promoting energy efficiency.

fzeroracer 1y ago
Are you familiar with the Flour War? I suggest reading up on the history of that and what happens when you try to let the invisible hand control things considered essential.
grepfru_it 1y ago
Our rates went up but now they are offering free nights. Cost of battery tech has dropped, so now I am powering my house with batteries during the day and charge them at night. The downside is vendors come and go, so the battery you buy today may not be the same offered tomorrow.
baggy_trough 1y ago
I thought we were supposed to be replacing natural gas appliances with electric ones, but it's become ruinously expensive to do so. Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates, the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous.
- danans 1y ago
  > Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates, Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA. This is especially true for appliances like heat pumps due to their >100% "efficiency", and if you are somewhere with cheap clean electricity (Pacific Northwest) they are a no-brainer. > the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous. With smart splitters and some planning, panel upgrades can often be avoided: https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/articles/electrical-panel/how-to-electrify-home-100-amp https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/articles/electrical-panel/...
  - quesera 1y ago
    I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street). Panel upgrades are just the most visible, but not individually expensive, part.
    - danans 1y ago
      > I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street). I understood that, but my point is that smart panel and smart circuit splitters upgrades can eliminate the need for a service drop upgrade.
  - inferiorhuman 1y ago
    Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA. Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap. Even compared to my not-high-efficiency gas powered furnace a heat pump is more expensive to run. At best electricity is about $0.40/kWh and natural gas is $2.45/therm.
    - baggy_trough 1y ago
      I suppose their solution will be to greatly increase the price of gas.
    - danans 1y ago
      > Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap. Yes, the electricity rates in the IOU territories (PGE, SCE, SDGE) are horribly high. But in publicly owned LADWP or SMUD, the average rate is around $.22/kWh, depending on usage patterns. Not Pacific Northwest cheap, but definitely better than PGE.
      - inferiorhuman 1y ago
        Yes, muni power is significantly cheaper. Unfortunately it's in the minority. PG&E is the dominant player in most of California. In the Bay Area only Alameda and Santa Clara (cities) have muni power. PG&E's astroturfed (hi Greg Dewar!) and lobbied hard against it each time it comes up.
WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
> I'm beyond ok with this! Let backpressure into the market! The article brought up some downstream effects such as seniors choosing between paying for power or their meds. When we approve an outcome without addressing the consequences, we are effectively rubberstamping those consequences. I believe this doesn't serve us well.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  They could also move to a place where they don't need 24x7 air conditioning running 10 months a year.
  - Broken_Hippo 1y ago
    If someone is having to choose between power and medication, how could they get the money to move to this place?? They won't. Most folks aren't really that mobile and being poor makes this more likely. I'll also note that I live in such a place. Heck, I don't have air conditioning at all. But if I don't have heat in the winter, I'll die. It's cold out. Not many place have the luxury of not needing heating nor cooling - and even when some folks can go without, not all buildings are fit for that purpose. 2 windows on one side of an apartment doesn't make for good ventilation.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      > how could they get the money to move to this place Maybe we give it to them? They're very likely on subsidized income anyway, it's a one time cost and drop in the bucket to move them to someplace more affordable.
      - WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
        > Maybe we give it to them? Established funding sources tend to have long lines of applicants. Past that, if it's public funds, the rising political force is fiercely opposed to this - mostly for ideological reasons that are disconnected from actual outcomes.
3eb7988a1663 1y ago
Good news! The current administration also wants to put an end to the Energy Star program.
- Iwan-Zotow 1y ago
  Actually, good news. Basically, everything now is marked ES, no discrimination
  - 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
    The standards get more strict all the time. The reason everything has an Energy Star label is because consumers are going to prefer the appliance that meets it. From the Energy Star website, savings since 2020: - Electricity: 520 billion kilowatt-hours - Energy costs: $42 billion - GHG emissions: 400 million metric tons But, I guess you-know. What a lousy government intervention. Centralizing a bit of extra up front engineering work to save $billions in wasted energy. Give me back all of those energy vampires that used to be so prevalent. Like standby modes that only turned off the power LED. https://www.energystar.gov/about/impacts https://www.energystar.gov/about/impacts
    - philipallstar 1y ago
      > Centralizing a bit of extra up front engineering work What engineering was centralised? Isn't it just a label?
      - 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
        Sloppy wording on my part. Just that the firms designing equipment could put in the effort to meet efficiency guidelines. To consumers, it is just a label on the product, but I am sure the official testing/validation requirements are some amount of work.
        philipallstar 1y ago
        Ah okay. Yes - I agree that each individual firm had to do this work, and should get credit for the progress they've enabled.

Are you familiar with the Flour War? I suggest reading up on the history of that and what happens when you try to let the invisible hand control things considered essential.

grepfru_it 1y ago

Our rates went up but now they are offering free nights. Cost of battery tech has dropped, so now I am powering my house with batteries during the day and charge them at night. The downside is vendors come and go, so the battery you buy today may not be the same offered tomorrow.

baggy_trough 1y ago

I thought we were supposed to be replacing natural gas appliances with electric ones, but it's become ruinously expensive to do so. Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates, the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous.

danans 1y ago
> Not only are they more expensive to operate due to high electricity rates, Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA. This is especially true for appliances like heat pumps due to their >100% "efficiency", and if you are somewhere with cheap clean electricity (Pacific Northwest) they are a no-brainer. > the panel upgrades for higher power draw are outrageous. With smart splitters and some planning, panel upgrades can often be avoided: https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/articles/electrical-panel/how-to-electrify-home-100-amp https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/articles/electrical-panel/...
- quesera 1y ago
  I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street). Panel upgrades are just the most visible, but not individually expensive, part.
  - danans 1y ago
    > I suspect that GP meant "service upgrades" are expensive (e.g. 100A to 200A from the street). I understood that, but my point is that smart panel and smart circuit splitters upgrades can eliminate the need for a service drop upgrade.
- inferiorhuman 1y ago
  Most electric appliances are much cheaper to operate, even in places with expensive electricity like MA and CA. Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap. Even compared to my not-high-efficiency gas powered furnace a heat pump is more expensive to run. At best electricity is about $0.40/kWh and natural gas is $2.45/therm.
  - baggy_trough 1y ago
    I suppose their solution will be to greatly increase the price of gas.
  - danans 1y ago
    > Nope. I'm in PG&E territory. Electricity is too expensive and natural gas is too cheap. Yes, the electricity rates in the IOU territories (PGE, SCE, SDGE) are horribly high. But in publicly owned LADWP or SMUD, the average rate is around $.22/kWh, depending on usage patterns. Not Pacific Northwest cheap, but definitely better than PGE.
    - inferiorhuman 1y ago
      Yes, muni power is significantly cheaper. Unfortunately it's in the minority. PG&E is the dominant player in most of California. In the Bay Area only Alameda and Santa Clara (cities) have muni power. PG&E's astroturfed (hi Greg Dewar!) and lobbied hard against it each time it comes up.

WarOnPrivacy 1y ago

> I'm beyond ok with this! Let backpressure into the market! The article brought up some downstream effects such as seniors choosing between paying for power or their meds. When we approve an outcome without addressing the consequences, we are effectively rubberstamping those consequences. I believe this doesn't serve us well.

SoftTalker 1y ago
They could also move to a place where they don't need 24x7 air conditioning running 10 months a year.
- Broken_Hippo 1y ago
  If someone is having to choose between power and medication, how could they get the money to move to this place?? They won't. Most folks aren't really that mobile and being poor makes this more likely. I'll also note that I live in such a place. Heck, I don't have air conditioning at all. But if I don't have heat in the winter, I'll die. It's cold out. Not many place have the luxury of not needing heating nor cooling - and even when some folks can go without, not all buildings are fit for that purpose. 2 windows on one side of an apartment doesn't make for good ventilation.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    > how could they get the money to move to this place Maybe we give it to them? They're very likely on subsidized income anyway, it's a one time cost and drop in the bucket to move them to someplace more affordable.
    - WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
      > Maybe we give it to them? Established funding sources tend to have long lines of applicants. Past that, if it's public funds, the rising political force is fiercely opposed to this - mostly for ideological reasons that are disconnected from actual outcomes.

3eb7988a1663 1y ago

Good news! The current administration also wants to put an end to the Energy Star program.

Iwan-Zotow 1y ago
Actually, good news. Basically, everything now is marked ES, no discrimination
- 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
  The standards get more strict all the time. The reason everything has an Energy Star label is because consumers are going to prefer the appliance that meets it. From the Energy Star website, savings since 2020: - Electricity: 520 billion kilowatt-hours - Energy costs: $42 billion - GHG emissions: 400 million metric tons But, I guess you-know. What a lousy government intervention. Centralizing a bit of extra up front engineering work to save $billions in wasted energy. Give me back all of those energy vampires that used to be so prevalent. Like standby modes that only turned off the power LED. https://www.energystar.gov/about/impacts https://www.energystar.gov/about/impacts
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    > Centralizing a bit of extra up front engineering work What engineering was centralised? Isn't it just a label?
    - 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
      Sloppy wording on my part. Just that the firms designing equipment could put in the effort to meet efficiency guidelines. To consumers, it is just a label on the product, but I am sure the official testing/validation requirements are some amount of work.
      - philipallstar 1y ago
        Ah okay. Yes - I agree that each individual firm had to do this work, and should get credit for the progress they've enabled.