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The article... well, it doesn't bury the lede, but it does completely omit it outside of the headline. For anyone who doesn't know the context: The BBC Micro w
by cperciva 1y ago
The article... well, it doesn't bury the lede, but it does completely omit it outside of the headline. For anyone who doesn't know the context: The BBC Micro was built by Acorn Computers, which proceeded to design the Acorn RISC Machine -- later renamed to Advanced RISC Machine and thence to simply "arm".
In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86).
- zabzonk 1y ago> In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86) Except the BBC micro didn't use an ARM processor - it used a 6502. Whereas the IBM PC did use the Intel processor.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- afandian 1y agoDepends how nitpicky you want to be. There was an ARM “BBC Micro”. https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archimedes-A310/ https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archi... And the IBM PC used an 8088. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer
- cperciva 1y agoSure, but modern x86 has very little in common with the 8088.
- lproven 1y ago> modern x86 has very little in common with the 8088. It is directly binary compatible. A Core i7 can boot and run MS-DOS from the 8088. I offer a freebie DOS distro for modern PCs: https://github.com/lproven/usb-dos https://github.com/lproven/usb-dos What more do you want than "executes the same binaries"?
- mojuba 1y agoDepends on how you define "common" but the entire lineage 8080 -> 8086 -> 8088 are backwards compatible and therefore are very much related.
- klelatti 1y ago8080 -> 8086 not compatible although assembly code translation was possible.
- mananaysiempre 1y agoSome parts of the lineage are nevertheless very important. When I wrote a 8086 assembler, I’ve come across the idea of of writing the instruction encodings in octal instead of hexadecimal purely by accident, described as some sort of little-known neat trick hidden from the casual reader of the CPU documentation. It’s only by reading the manual for the Datapoint 2200 much later that I found a confirmation that this was very much intentional and (in the distant past) documented.
- klelatti 1y ago100%! There is clear lineage back to the Datapoint 2200 which is remarkable given that it wasn't even an Intel design and CTC gave away the rights IIRC.
- jacquesm 1y agoIt goes further back than that, just not as backwards compatible. 4004 -> 8008, 8080 and so on. Just like the 6800, 6809, 68000 etc progression. All of these are families that have more in common with each other from one generation to the next than with other such families. It's logical: usually those were the same teams designing them with better tools and more money at their disposal, as well as a vastly increased transistor budget. Notable exception: the 6800 is in many ways simply an improved 6502 but by a different manufacturer.
- tonyedgecombe 1y ago
- userbinator 1y agoThe 16-bit mode instruction set of a modern x86 is almost entirely a superset of the 8088.
- jacquesm 1y agoExcept, of course there was the Archimedes. Which was a BBC Micro on steroids. Besides, it did say 'in many ways' so I think that this is really needless nitpicking.
- taylorius 1y agoThe Archimedes was called a "BBC Micro" because it was part of the BBC's home computing initiative, but architecturally, it had nothing to do with the original BBC Micro.
- lproven 1y ago> architecturally, it had nothing to do with the original BBC Micro. This is not true. It had lots to do with it. * The Archimedes used a CPU whose designers (Sophie Wilson and Steve Furber) have specifically said they built it to be conceptually similar to the 6502. Source: I have met both and seen them say this in person. * The Archimedes ran RISC OS which is a rewrite of the BBC MOS. Source: I have interviewed the project leader, Paul Fellows. https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/how_risc_os_happened/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/how_risc_os_happened/ The Archie came with !6052tube and could run some BBC apps. Source code: http://bbc.nvg.org/rom/Acorn/os/?C=N;O=A http://bbc.nvg.org/rom/Acorn/os/?C=N;O=A
- jacquesm 1y agoHardware architecture not, for very obvious reasons. But if you wrote BBC Basic you'd have felt right at home and this continuity was one of the reasons they sold quite well, lots of people that were using the BBC Micro in ways that it wasn't intended for had run into the limitations of the platform and wanted something similar but bigger and faster. The Archimedes was that - and more. To get maximum performance (still very anemic by today's standards) out of a 6502 based BBC you'd have been programming in assembly and that of course did not port at all to the ARM based machines. As I wrote in another comment I was pretty close to the fire and had very early access to the ARM architecture based beebs courtesy of a friendly contact but I realized soon enough that the future for home computing and SMB business computing did not lie with either Acorn, Atari, Commodore or any of the other contenders. In '88 or so (my memory is a bit hazy about the dates, there was a lot going on in my life back then) I moved to x86 professionally with a side of Atari ST (using the fantastic Mark Williams C compiler + documentation) for more fun stuff and with the advent of the availability of the internet for the masses I ran SGI Irix for a couple of years until I settled on Linux which has been my daily driver for decades now. Hardware architecture used to be a super important factor for me, now the only thing that matters is whether or not I can run Ubuntu and whether the hardware is sufficiently powerful to get me through my working day. The fact that my daily driver is a 12 year old laptop is a nice indication of how far we've come, it is pretty rare that I put together machines where performance really matters. But regardless of all of that I have a fond spot in my heart for the BBC, regardless of processor used, it was the machine that allowed me to finally do some more structured programming and explore other languages without breaking the bank.
- Kim_Bruning 1y agoSort of true, but yet, what does my eye spy on an early Archimedes A310 keyboard? (detail: https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/32bit/A310/310-Keyboard-detail.jpg https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/user/custom/Acorn/32bit/A310/310... ) (full article for reference: https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archimedes-A310/ https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-BBC-Archi... ) ... and besides, it runs BBC BASIC!
- djmips 1y agoLet's be serious, the BBC micro is awesome but it's no more the ancestor to my phone than an Apple II.
- lproven 1y ago> it's no more the ancestor to my phone than an Apple II. It really is. Both Acorn (BBC Micro designers/manufacturers) and Apple Computer (Apple II ditto) bought in the MOS 6502 chip. When it came to successor models, both tried the 65C816. Acorn made the Communicator: https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Communicator.html https://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Commun... Apple made the Apple IIgs: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_553246 https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_55324... Both were not delighted with its performance and looked elsewhere. Apple went for the 68000 for its next mass-market model, the Mac. (I am aware the timeline is more complex; this is a simplification.) Acorn evaluated the 68000, the 80186, the NatSemi 16032 and others. It designed its own chip instead: the ARM, Acorn RISC Machine. This was first launched as an add-on accelerator for the BBC Micro. https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/48862/Acorn-1MB-A-Second-Processor/ https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/48862/Acorn-1MB-A-Se... It was later launched as an Acorn computer, running a 32-bit port of Acorn's MOS and BASIC. It included a 6502 emulators and so could run some BBC Micro software. https://www.onirom.fr/wiki/blog/21-04-2022_Acorn-Archimedes/ https://www.onirom.fr/wiki/blog/21-04-2022_Acorn-Archimedes/ That ARM chip is the direct ancestor of the chip in all Android devices, all iOS devices, and modern Macs.
- rjsw 1y agoIt is a bit closer link than that, the same people designed the BBC micro and ARM1.
- mark_undoio 1y agoAcorn was doing stuff in Cambridge UK until more recently than I'd realised - it effectively incubated a load of talent that went on to find other companies. Famously ARM span out of it but many others also went on to do cool things - my current company was founded by Acorn people.
- skissane 1y ago> In many ways, the tuple (BBC Micro, Acorn Computers, arm) is analogous to (IBM PC, Intel, x86). There was a radical difference in the relationship between the two corporations in each tuple. In the BBC-Acorn relationship, Acorn designed and manufactured the computer; BBC just offered their brand, did marketing, and supplied some high-level requirements. In the IBM-Intel relationship, IBM designed and manufactured the computer, and Intel was the CPU vendor, with many other customers. The 6502s used in the pre-ARM BBC systems were from MOS Technology–or one of their licensees, such as GTE/CMD–so those companies were really the Intel equivalent here
- hnuser123456 1y agoGTE: General Telephone & Electronics CMD: Commodore Micro-Devices
- skissane 1y agoCMD in this case being California Micro Devices, who bought GTE’s microprocessor business in the mid-to-late 1980s, and then was acquired by onsemi in 2009. The BBC Master used their CPUs There is another CMD, Creative Micro Designs, who sold aftermarket peripherals for Commodore 64/etc
- classichasclass 1y agoCommodore manufactured chips either under the MOS Technology or Commodore Semiconductor Group (CSG) names.
- jnaina 1y agoNotably, no mention of Sophie Wilson, who played a pivotal role in designing the original ARM ISA. Remarkably, the movie Micro Men also overlooked much of Sophie Wilson’s role, despite her work on ARM becoming one of the most significant technological advances in computing history, accept for a token cameo role as the pub landlady.
- quantummagic 1y agoAt the time of the original ARM ISA, Sophie Wilson was pre-transition and still a man named Roger Wilson. Not trying to be harsh, but it's really not exactly historically accurate to portray a woman being involved in the process at that time.
- foldr 1y agoI think their point is that the movie didn’t give much attention to her role, which doesn’t have anything to do with her gender. It’s generally considered to be bad form to refer to someone using their deadname even if you are talking about a period when they were using it. We should not make assumptions about someone’s gender identity before they “transitioned”. She was living as a man, but we don’t know how she identified at the time.
- bobalob 1y ago> as she would not have faced sexism while living as a man The irony here is that concepts like "living as a man" and "living as a woman" are inherently sexist.
- foldr 1y agoI agree, broadly speaking. I’m sure a lot of people (trans and otherwise) would love to escape the straightjacket of the gender binary, but an individual person has to find a way to live in the society they’re in.
- 1y ago