7 ms·

Why blame the crappy SSDs when the issue seems to be that Microsoft doesnt care about their low end users and happily deploys apps which creates work loads that

Why blame the crappy SSDs when the issue seems to be that Microsoft doesnt care about their low end users and happily deploys apps which creates work loads that can literally break hardware? Even if it doesnt break your hardware, why deploy something so bloated?

hulitu 1y ago
> that Microsoft doesnt care about their low end users and happily deploys apps which creates work loads that can literally break hardware? Damn, i hate to defend Mickey$oft here but, if your hardware breaks under work loads, better buy a better one. Windows is not able to use all cores on a CPU properly, so if you have a workload problem, it is your hardware.
BenjiWiebe 1y ago
If your software can break your hardware on a normal PC (not talking industrial robots or something), your hardware is flawed.
- wiseowise 1y ago
  Your finger can also be easily cut off by a wood cutter, doesn't mean that it has to be.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  While this is largely true, that's no excuse for a system such as Windows to brick SSDs like that. It's still by far the most popular operating system despite Microsoft's best efforts into enshitifying it. Windows is therefore going to be used by a wide variety of systems, including those with low grade hardware parts. So it either has to be part of windows quality control to test these low end systems or it should make it very clear about the system requirements. Either way, the problem was patched, which makes it a problem on windows side.
  - ghosty141 1y ago
    What? If your SSD is old and close to failure, you can’t blame the software pushing it over the edge. If a company sells parts that can’t handle writes that are within spec then I’m sorry you bought junk…
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      Is that the case in the article? Why did it happen after the latest update? Why did it need a patch then? Your comment seems out of context.
      - gruez 1y ago
        No, your comment is out of context. If you read the comments in this thread, it's clear that the this subthread is presupposing the issue caused by bad hardware, and debating what obligation (if any) microsoft has.
        gchamonlive 1y ago
        So care to answer? "Is that the case in the article? Why did it happen after the latest update? Why did it need a patch then?"
        gruez 1y ago
        I replied to your other comment asking the same question 10 minutes ago.
    - hulitu 1y ago
      > If your SSD is old and close to failure, you can’t blame the software pushing it over the edge. If you have an old car, you shouldn't press the gas pedal. /s
  - nottorp 1y ago
    Not to mention that I don't see why Windows Defender should generate such heavy write workloads... an antivirus has no reason to. Have they rewriten it in React like the crippled taskbar?
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Since when is shitty designed HW bricking itself from OS I/O calls, a software issue? Sure, Microsoft can issue a SW workaround to mitigate this issue as they did for Intel Skylake CPU issues, but that doesn't change the fact that the core issue is faulty designed HW. Why don't SSD manufacturers test their shit before shoveling it out the door to consumers?
- bigyabai 1y ago
  > Why don't SSD manufacturers test their shit Most of them do, not that it stops people from buying Temu PCs anyways.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    They clearly don't. They just boot windows, run a benchmark and call it a day.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      You don't know that. You're manufacturing fiction to support whatever sardonic comment you want to make.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        It's been confirmed by other commenters on HN over the years, who had worked in/with the SSD manufactures on firmware/device development. Feel free to not believe it if you want, IDGAF what you believe.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
It’s a bit of column A, a bit of column B sort of situation. Microsoft should be more careful, but also such blatantly garbage hardware never should’ve shipped. So I’d say hold MS responsible, but also push back against manufactured e-waste like that.
- gruez 1y ago
  >Microsoft should be more careful What does "more careful" even mean? For instance, if your crappy SSD has some bug that causes data corruption if there are more than 16 writes in flight at a time, and microsoft pushes an update that causes it to do writes more aggressively, should it really be microsoft's fault that your crappy SSD broke? Should microsoft keep throttle windows IO at 2000s HDD throguhput on the off chance that some IDE drive bricks itself when it encounters SSD level workloads?
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    It’s not really MS’ fault that crappy SSDs broke, but at the same time it’s only ever Windows that sees these issues. This suggests that this kind of strain on the hardware is unnecessary given the task, which then paints a picture of negligent sloppiness in engineering and QA culture at MS.
    - gruez 1y ago
      >It’s not really MS’ fault that crappy SSDs broke, but at the same time it’s only ever Windows that sees these issues see sibling comment for something similar happening on zfs. linux is also filled with workarounds for crappy SSDs, so "SSDs breaking due to software" isn't exactly exclusively a windows problem. It just gets more attention because of the bigger user base. >This suggests that this kind of strain on the hardware is unnecessary given the task, which then paints a picture of negligent sloppiness in engineering and QA culture at MS. "straining hardware" shouldn't be a thing for PC components. If it can't handle a given workload, it should throttle/queue the requests, not brick itself. I can grant some leeway for long term wear (eg. heat damage or electromigration), but that's clearly not what's happening here. Can you imagine a network card that bricks itself if you send too many packets, and you have to baby it with how many packets you send in any given amount of time?
exe34 1y ago
if it was Linux they'd be telling us how it's the end of Linux on the desktop.
palmotea 1y ago
There's enough blame to go around, so we don't have to argue about which one party is at fault. BOTH Microsoft and the crappy SSD makers can be wrong at the same time. SSD makers should make better products. Microsoft should do enough testing so it doesn't push updates that trigger data-losing hardware flaws.

hulitu 1y ago

> that Microsoft doesnt care about their low end users and happily deploys apps which creates work loads that can literally break hardware? Damn, i hate to defend Mickey$oft here but, if your hardware breaks under work loads, better buy a better one. Windows is not able to use all cores on a CPU properly, so if you have a workload problem, it is your hardware.

BenjiWiebe 1y ago

If your software can break your hardware on a normal PC (not talking industrial robots or something), your hardware is flawed.

wiseowise 1y ago
Your finger can also be easily cut off by a wood cutter, doesn't mean that it has to be.
gchamonlive 1y ago
While this is largely true, that's no excuse for a system such as Windows to brick SSDs like that. It's still by far the most popular operating system despite Microsoft's best efforts into enshitifying it. Windows is therefore going to be used by a wide variety of systems, including those with low grade hardware parts. So it either has to be part of windows quality control to test these low end systems or it should make it very clear about the system requirements. Either way, the problem was patched, which makes it a problem on windows side.
- ghosty141 1y ago
  What? If your SSD is old and close to failure, you can’t blame the software pushing it over the edge. If a company sells parts that can’t handle writes that are within spec then I’m sorry you bought junk…
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Is that the case in the article? Why did it happen after the latest update? Why did it need a patch then? Your comment seems out of context.
    - gruez 1y ago
      No, your comment is out of context. If you read the comments in this thread, it's clear that the this subthread is presupposing the issue caused by bad hardware, and debating what obligation (if any) microsoft has.
      - gchamonlive 1y ago
        So care to answer? "Is that the case in the article? Why did it happen after the latest update? Why did it need a patch then?"
        gruez 1y ago
        I replied to your other comment asking the same question 10 minutes ago.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > If your SSD is old and close to failure, you can’t blame the software pushing it over the edge. If you have an old car, you shouldn't press the gas pedal. /s
- nottorp 1y ago
  Not to mention that I don't see why Windows Defender should generate such heavy write workloads... an antivirus has no reason to. Have they rewriten it in React like the crippled taskbar?

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

Since when is shitty designed HW bricking itself from OS I/O calls, a software issue? Sure, Microsoft can issue a SW workaround to mitigate this issue as they did for Intel Skylake CPU issues, but that doesn't change the fact that the core issue is faulty designed HW. Why don't SSD manufacturers test their shit before shoveling it out the door to consumers?

bigyabai 1y ago
> Why don't SSD manufacturers test their shit Most of them do, not that it stops people from buying Temu PCs anyways.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  They clearly don't. They just boot windows, run a benchmark and call it a day.
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    You don't know that. You're manufacturing fiction to support whatever sardonic comment you want to make.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      It's been confirmed by other commenters on HN over the years, who had worked in/with the SSD manufactures on firmware/device development. Feel free to not believe it if you want, IDGAF what you believe.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

It’s a bit of column A, a bit of column B sort of situation. Microsoft should be more careful, but also such blatantly garbage hardware never should’ve shipped. So I’d say hold MS responsible, but also push back against manufactured e-waste like that.

gruez 1y ago
>Microsoft should be more careful What does "more careful" even mean? For instance, if your crappy SSD has some bug that causes data corruption if there are more than 16 writes in flight at a time, and microsoft pushes an update that causes it to do writes more aggressively, should it really be microsoft's fault that your crappy SSD broke? Should microsoft keep throttle windows IO at 2000s HDD throguhput on the off chance that some IDE drive bricks itself when it encounters SSD level workloads?
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  It’s not really MS’ fault that crappy SSDs broke, but at the same time it’s only ever Windows that sees these issues. This suggests that this kind of strain on the hardware is unnecessary given the task, which then paints a picture of negligent sloppiness in engineering and QA culture at MS.
  - gruez 1y ago
    >It’s not really MS’ fault that crappy SSDs broke, but at the same time it’s only ever Windows that sees these issues see sibling comment for something similar happening on zfs. linux is also filled with workarounds for crappy SSDs, so "SSDs breaking due to software" isn't exactly exclusively a windows problem. It just gets more attention because of the bigger user base. >This suggests that this kind of strain on the hardware is unnecessary given the task, which then paints a picture of negligent sloppiness in engineering and QA culture at MS. "straining hardware" shouldn't be a thing for PC components. If it can't handle a given workload, it should throttle/queue the requests, not brick itself. I can grant some leeway for long term wear (eg. heat damage or electromigration), but that's clearly not what's happening here. Can you imagine a network card that bricks itself if you send too many packets, and you have to baby it with how many packets you send in any given amount of time?

exe34 1y ago

if it was Linux they'd be telling us how it's the end of Linux on the desktop.

palmotea 1y ago

There's enough blame to go around, so we don't have to argue about which one party is at fault. BOTH Microsoft and the crappy SSD makers can be wrong at the same time. SSD makers should make better products. Microsoft should do enough testing so it doesn't push updates that trigger data-losing hardware flaws.