5 ms·

You don’t need a speed test website to see this problem. Just run a ping on your own while doing a big download that saturates your connection and bufferbloat w

by ryao 1y ago

You don’t need a speed test website to see this problem. Just run a ping on your own while doing a big download that saturates your connection and bufferbloat will happen unless there is some active queue management to prevent the ping packets from waiting in the queue behind the download packets. This happens anytime that there is a fast/slow transition in the internet and the slow connection cannot keep up. To prevent packet loss, the packets will be buffered, which works well for short spikes, but prolonged activity will result in a noticeable backlog and if buffers are allowed to be sufficiently big, you can get arbitrarily long delays, which are visible in ping times. The worst that I have ever seen was about 30 seconds when visiting a foreign country where bufferbloat was occurring at peering links. The bufferbloat in peering links is likely visible from western countries if you ping residential IPs in developing countries and monitor the ping times over days. Some parts of the day will have very high ping times while others will not. The high ping times will be the buffer bloat. In most western countries, the bufferbloat typically occurs at people’s home internet connections. As is the case in all cases of buffer bloat, the solution is to be willing to drop packets when the connection is saturated. If you limit the bandwidth just below what the connection can handle, you can do active queue management to solve the problem. That said, I suggest you stop posting replies. Your crusade against the idea of buffer bloat makes you look bad to anyone with enough networking knowledge to understand what bufferbloat is. I also strongly suspect I wrote an explanation that you will take zero time to understand and rather than take my advice, you will post another reply to continue your crusade. :/

commandersaki 1y ago
Thanks for the reply and confirming what I had already said earlier in regards to detecting telltale signs of bufferbloat. In case you were aware, a controlled experiment to exhibit bufferbloat doesn't translate to users being materially affected. The worst that I have ever seen was about 30 seconds when visiting a foreign country where bufferbloat was occurring at peering links. The bufferbloat in peering links is likely visible from western countries if you ping residential IPs in developing countries and monitor the ping times over days. Some parts of the day will have very high ping times while others will not. The high ping times will be the buffer bloat. Out of curiosity, did you have full observability of these peering links, or is this a hypothesis? I could think of a few scenarios where alternative explanations could explain what you're seeing. In most western countries, the bufferbloat typically occurs at people’s home internet connections. Says who? How is this measured? Do we have actual numbers on people experiencing real bufferbloat issues that are affecting their service? That said, I suggest you stop posting replies. Your crusade against the idea of buffer bloat makes you look bad to anyone with enough networking knowledge to understand what bufferbloat is. I also strongly suspect I wrote an explanation that you will take zero time to understand and rather than take my advice, you will post another reply out of ignorance. :/ Look, I will cordially suggest a more tenable approach: consider disengaging from this thread, your vacuous and vapid post hasn't really brought anything to the table. Edit: Seems I can't reply to the child comment, so I'll just say, you should've used your own advice and not reply. There's nothing of substance and you're still continuing with your daft misinterpretation of my take. I'll leave it at that.
- ryao 1y ago
  Overanalysis for the sake of denying the existence of whatever you want is cliche. It does not matter how complete the information on a subject is, since you will just post more pointless questions, whose relevance is specious, for the sake of claiming there are non-existent issues in understanding. The last time I saw this used involved a very loquacious guy who denied Darwin’s theory of evolution. It can also be used to claim the world is flat. I was being generous by advising you to stop posting, since the more you post asinine things, the worse you look. In the past, I have taken the liberty to do amateur psychoanalysis of people who post bizarre things online based on a psychology class I took in college. If I keep responding, it will only be to get you to post more so that I can work out what is wrong with you for my own curiosity. I am probably not the only one thinking this.
  - commandersaki 1y ago
    I was being generous by advising you to stop posting, since the more you post asinine things, the worse you look. In the past, I have taken the liberty to do amateur psychoanalysis of people who post bizarre things online based on a psychology class I took in college. If I keep responding, it will only be to get you to post more so that I can work out what is wrong with you for my own curiosity. I am probably not the only one thinking this. Look, let's call this what it is: gatekeeping. Furthermore you deflect and avoid answering a real question. I don't think you actually understood the crux of what I'm saying and instead resorted to ad hominems and gatekeeping, but seeing as it went over your head, I will pose the question: does bufferbloat have more than a marginal affect on the Internet experience of end users in real world conditions (not in a controlled experiment), furthermore does it affect a significant population, as of today in the 2020s as opposed to circa 2010? I'm saying no to both; a good way to gauge whether it is still relevant is to see publications in networking conferences and journals or even discussions by the *NOG, and really it's just not there. I know there's obsession over CoDel etc. and I used to follow the late Dave Taht's evangelising about the issue, but put simply the numbers don't add up - anyways a simpler solution would simply to prioritise ICMP and UDP flows over TCP. Anyways, this is not your imagined crusade against bufferbloat, it's just a pragmatic assessment. I'll leave it at that, rather than deflect and attack, consider applying some emotional intelligence.
esseph 1y ago
You are 100% correct. It is not yet a "solved" problem, but 10-15 years have started to make a dent and get better tools to both observe and act on the problem. This is seen everywhere from the inclusion of CAKE ( https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-cake.8.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-cake.8.html ) in some CPE / home router, but the use of fq_codel ( https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-fq_codel.8.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-fq_codel.8.html ) in routers along the way. Other ISPs have to go even farther, because "content" might be 80-120ms away, and the ability to be more aggressive or less aggressive in tuning certain parameters can have a large impact on overall customer Quality of Experience. If there are any LEO hops along the way, problems with TCP and delayed signaling as a byproduct can also make throughout tank while latency spikes. DPDK and VPP have contributed to a lot of new networking devices to help observe and act on traffic. Everytime you go from a big pipe to a small pipe (higher data rate to lower data rate) connection you will see this issue at varying levels.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ryao 1y ago
  Do you have links to information on what DPDK and VPP are doing in the area of bufferbloat? I have not kept up with them since I cannot use them in my day to day life, but I would love to update myself on the subject. By the way, when I wrote in another comment that bufferbloat was solved, I meant it in the same way that IPv4 exhaustion is solved by IPv6. We have the ability to deploy solutions that largely fix things, but whether we do is another matter. You are right to say that the past 10-15 years have started to make a dent in the problem. I had not meant to suggest otherwise.
  - esseph 1y ago
    Take a look at any of the QoE type vendors out there right now. https://www.bequant.com/ https://www.bequant.com/

by ryao 1y ago

commandersaki 1y ago

Thanks for the reply and confirming what I had already said earlier in regards to detecting telltale signs of bufferbloat. In case you were aware, a controlled experiment to exhibit bufferbloat doesn't translate to users being materially affected. The worst that I have ever seen was about 30 seconds when visiting a foreign country where bufferbloat was occurring at peering links. The bufferbloat in peering links is likely visible from western countries if you ping residential IPs in developing countries and monitor the ping times over days. Some parts of the day will have very high ping times while others will not. The high ping times will be the buffer bloat. Out of curiosity, did you have full observability of these peering links, or is this a hypothesis? I could think of a few scenarios where alternative explanations could explain what you're seeing. In most western countries, the bufferbloat typically occurs at people’s home internet connections. Says who? How is this measured? Do we have actual numbers on people experiencing real bufferbloat issues that are affecting their service? That said, I suggest you stop posting replies. Your crusade against the idea of buffer bloat makes you look bad to anyone with enough networking knowledge to understand what bufferbloat is. I also strongly suspect I wrote an explanation that you will take zero time to understand and rather than take my advice, you will post another reply out of ignorance. :/ Look, I will cordially suggest a more tenable approach: consider disengaging from this thread, your vacuous and vapid post hasn't really brought anything to the table. Edit: Seems I can't reply to the child comment, so I'll just say, you should've used your own advice and not reply. There's nothing of substance and you're still continuing with your daft misinterpretation of my take. I'll leave it at that.

ryao 1y ago
Overanalysis for the sake of denying the existence of whatever you want is cliche. It does not matter how complete the information on a subject is, since you will just post more pointless questions, whose relevance is specious, for the sake of claiming there are non-existent issues in understanding. The last time I saw this used involved a very loquacious guy who denied Darwin’s theory of evolution. It can also be used to claim the world is flat. I was being generous by advising you to stop posting, since the more you post asinine things, the worse you look. In the past, I have taken the liberty to do amateur psychoanalysis of people who post bizarre things online based on a psychology class I took in college. If I keep responding, it will only be to get you to post more so that I can work out what is wrong with you for my own curiosity. I am probably not the only one thinking this.
- commandersaki 1y ago
  I was being generous by advising you to stop posting, since the more you post asinine things, the worse you look. In the past, I have taken the liberty to do amateur psychoanalysis of people who post bizarre things online based on a psychology class I took in college. If I keep responding, it will only be to get you to post more so that I can work out what is wrong with you for my own curiosity. I am probably not the only one thinking this. Look, let's call this what it is: gatekeeping. Furthermore you deflect and avoid answering a real question. I don't think you actually understood the crux of what I'm saying and instead resorted to ad hominems and gatekeeping, but seeing as it went over your head, I will pose the question: does bufferbloat have more than a marginal affect on the Internet experience of end users in real world conditions (not in a controlled experiment), furthermore does it affect a significant population, as of today in the 2020s as opposed to circa 2010? I'm saying no to both; a good way to gauge whether it is still relevant is to see publications in networking conferences and journals or even discussions by the *NOG, and really it's just not there. I know there's obsession over CoDel etc. and I used to follow the late Dave Taht's evangelising about the issue, but put simply the numbers don't add up - anyways a simpler solution would simply to prioritise ICMP and UDP flows over TCP. Anyways, this is not your imagined crusade against bufferbloat, it's just a pragmatic assessment. I'll leave it at that, rather than deflect and attack, consider applying some emotional intelligence.

esseph 1y ago

You are 100% correct. It is not yet a "solved" problem, but 10-15 years have started to make a dent and get better tools to both observe and act on the problem. This is seen everywhere from the inclusion of CAKE ( https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-cake.8.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-cake.8.html ) in some CPE / home router, but the use of fq_codel ( https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-fq_codel.8.html https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/tc-fq_codel.8.html ) in routers along the way. Other ISPs have to go even farther, because "content" might be 80-120ms away, and the ability to be more aggressive or less aggressive in tuning certain parameters can have a large impact on overall customer Quality of Experience. If there are any LEO hops along the way, problems with TCP and delayed signaling as a byproduct can also make throughout tank while latency spikes. DPDK and VPP have contributed to a lot of new networking devices to help observe and act on traffic. Everytime you go from a big pipe to a small pipe (higher data rate to lower data rate) connection you will see this issue at varying levels.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ryao 1y ago
Do you have links to information on what DPDK and VPP are doing in the area of bufferbloat? I have not kept up with them since I cannot use them in my day to day life, but I would love to update myself on the subject. By the way, when I wrote in another comment that bufferbloat was solved, I meant it in the same way that IPv4 exhaustion is solved by IPv6. We have the ability to deploy solutions that largely fix things, but whether we do is another matter. You are right to say that the past 10-15 years have started to make a dent in the problem. I had not meant to suggest otherwise.
- esseph 1y ago
  Take a look at any of the QoE type vendors out there right now. https://www.bequant.com/ https://www.bequant.com/