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I don’t disagree. But there is still far more protection for free speech in the US than in the EU, where wrongthink is not acceptable to the powers that be. It

I don’t disagree. But there is still far more protection for free speech in the US than in the EU, where wrongthink is not acceptable to the powers that be. It is a huge regression and for some reason, culturally Europe seems to be modeling itself more after China than the US, with whom it shares more history and values.

em-bee 1y ago
i have lived in all three places (15 years in china) and i have to respond with an empathic no. what we are seeing is that thanks to social media, more discourse is public. which leads to more prosecutions. that is not a regression. that stuff has always been prosecuted. and they go against hate speech, not wrong think.
- moi2388 1y ago
  Hate speech is wrong think. Threats are something different
  - em-bee 1y ago
    hate speech is no clearly defined, so maybe we need to talk about that. wikipedia translates the german term "Volksverhetzung" to "incitement to hatred", but that's not actually a good translation, because it rather means "incitement to hatred against a whole people". besides that here is strong language directed against individuals that is designed to hurt them. in germany that is defined as insult to your honor or dignity and incitement to violence. the devil is in the details of course, and there are many expressions that are borderline and depend on context. but i think we can agree that such speech is generally not wanted. whether it should be punished is another question, but in my opinion "wrong think" goes way beyond what i described here. one topic that does go beyond hate speech that may be problematic is expressions that threatens the democracy. i couldn't find any good examples for that yet other than democracy being threatened by radicalization, polarization and political violence. so presumably anything that leads to that, most of which is already covered by hate speech.
    - moi2388 1y ago
      I don’t agree with that. Inciting violence is wrong. Lying is wrong. But pointing out crime figures of for example the imported migrant Muslims is true, yet also hate speech? I think we’re far beyond hate speech being thought crime. It also means you can’t be honest about your reasons or viewpoint, thereby poisoning the public debate.
      - em-bee 1y ago
        i can't comment on specific examples without knowing more details about the context and what actually happened. the problem in such cases is often that crime figures are cited in isolation without comparing them to local crime figures as if there was no local crime or ignoring the fact that a lot of "crime" by immigrants is violations against immigration law. something a local can't possibly violate. i understand the same thing is happening in the US. so yes, if you twist statistics to deliberately make immigrants look worse than they are, then that is hate speech. if that is not what you are talking about then we will have to look at he actual numbers being pointed out and the message they come with and the response to that.
        moi2388 1y ago
        The problem is that already some countries, including Germany, are not reporting on the background of criminals anymore because it could lead to hate speech.
- ekianjo 1y ago
  hate speech is a hazy definition that depends only on the party in power, so it means no protection if you rely on that
FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
I dunno, right now America bans or locks up travelers for having fat Vance memes on their phone. So you tell me who is turning more towards China.
- account42 1y ago
  Stop spreading fake news, no one was detained or denied entry for a Vance meme.
- burnerthrow008 1y ago
  Customs officers everywhere have almost unlimited discretion to deny entry. While I think the Vance meme reflects very poorly on my country, it is always advisable to remember that you have very limited rights in every country while crossing the border and that it best not to piss off the officers. Travel StackExchange is filled with Q&A’s about how to what to do when the customs officials of various rich countries apply their discretion to deny entry, often for reasons even more petty than having a meme.
  - account42 1y ago
    > While I think the Vance meme reflects very poorly on my country The only thing it should reflect poorly on is reporters who ran with this fake story for clicks.
  - yencabulator 1y ago
    Putting people in near-torture jail is not "denying entry". American exceptionalism is crazy. US is one of the more abusive countries, not some civilized safe haven of individual liberties.
- dkiebd 1y ago
  > I dunno, right now America bans or locks up travelers for having fat Vance memes on their phone That has never happened.

em-bee 1y ago

i have lived in all three places (15 years in china) and i have to respond with an empathic no. what we are seeing is that thanks to social media, more discourse is public. which leads to more prosecutions. that is not a regression. that stuff has always been prosecuted. and they go against hate speech, not wrong think.

moi2388 1y ago
Hate speech is wrong think. Threats are something different
- em-bee 1y ago
  hate speech is no clearly defined, so maybe we need to talk about that. wikipedia translates the german term "Volksverhetzung" to "incitement to hatred", but that's not actually a good translation, because it rather means "incitement to hatred against a whole people". besides that here is strong language directed against individuals that is designed to hurt them. in germany that is defined as insult to your honor or dignity and incitement to violence. the devil is in the details of course, and there are many expressions that are borderline and depend on context. but i think we can agree that such speech is generally not wanted. whether it should be punished is another question, but in my opinion "wrong think" goes way beyond what i described here. one topic that does go beyond hate speech that may be problematic is expressions that threatens the democracy. i couldn't find any good examples for that yet other than democracy being threatened by radicalization, polarization and political violence. so presumably anything that leads to that, most of which is already covered by hate speech.
  - moi2388 1y ago
    I don’t agree with that. Inciting violence is wrong. Lying is wrong. But pointing out crime figures of for example the imported migrant Muslims is true, yet also hate speech? I think we’re far beyond hate speech being thought crime. It also means you can’t be honest about your reasons or viewpoint, thereby poisoning the public debate.
    - em-bee 1y ago
      i can't comment on specific examples without knowing more details about the context and what actually happened. the problem in such cases is often that crime figures are cited in isolation without comparing them to local crime figures as if there was no local crime or ignoring the fact that a lot of "crime" by immigrants is violations against immigration law. something a local can't possibly violate. i understand the same thing is happening in the US. so yes, if you twist statistics to deliberately make immigrants look worse than they are, then that is hate speech. if that is not what you are talking about then we will have to look at he actual numbers being pointed out and the message they come with and the response to that.
      - moi2388 1y ago
        The problem is that already some countries, including Germany, are not reporting on the background of criminals anymore because it could lead to hate speech.
ekianjo 1y ago
hate speech is a hazy definition that depends only on the party in power, so it means no protection if you rely on that

FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago

I dunno, right now America bans or locks up travelers for having fat Vance memes on their phone. So you tell me who is turning more towards China.

account42 1y ago
Stop spreading fake news, no one was detained or denied entry for a Vance meme.
burnerthrow008 1y ago
Customs officers everywhere have almost unlimited discretion to deny entry. While I think the Vance meme reflects very poorly on my country, it is always advisable to remember that you have very limited rights in every country while crossing the border and that it best not to piss off the officers. Travel StackExchange is filled with Q&A’s about how to what to do when the customs officials of various rich countries apply their discretion to deny entry, often for reasons even more petty than having a meme.
- account42 1y ago
  > While I think the Vance meme reflects very poorly on my country The only thing it should reflect poorly on is reporters who ran with this fake story for clicks.
- yencabulator 1y ago
  Putting people in near-torture jail is not "denying entry". American exceptionalism is crazy. US is one of the more abusive countries, not some civilized safe haven of individual liberties.
dkiebd 1y ago
> I dunno, right now America bans or locks up travelers for having fat Vance memes on their phone That has never happened.