3 ms·

It didn't lose all meaning, it just became more difficult to stereotype. The diagnostic criteria for ASD are about its impact on the individual, not how it supe

It didn't lose all meaning, it just became more difficult to stereotype. The diagnostic criteria for ASD are about its impact on the individual, not how it superficially presents to other people. The DSM-V combined together a bunch of old disorders with largely overlapping symptoms and no consistent differentiation at the diagnostic level.

cycomanic 1y ago
Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Because I struggle with the same thing, I don't know what autism is anymore. It's my impression that people now use the term autism is for pretty much any sort of neurodiversity (and even for traits within neuronormal, e.g. likes math). For what it's worth Wikipedia says, ASD is: > a neurodevelopmental disorder by differences or difficulties in social communication and interaction, a need or strong preference for predictability and routine, sensory processing differences, focused interests, and repetitive behaviors. Would you say this is stereotyping ASD? I'm not trying to be combative but genuinely want to understand.
- Ziomislaw 1y ago
  Basically it means that when you are born you pick a random amound of traits (with different intensity each) at random from a big bag of autistic traits. Of which the most common are the ones you mentioned. Special interests and different body language are guaranteed. For example I don't have a very strong preference for routine (but it wasn't nice when my parents rearanged furniture in the kids room), I only am overwhelmed by wearing socks a little and sound a lot, like when I was at a hospital and 3 people started playing music from their phones at the same time I had to run away from the room and I have a wierd body language but I'm very social, though have trouble keeping in touch with people (can be managed using a calendar reminders but it still feels like a chore). With age you learn to cope with them (some don't do it), like I learned to compensate for my death stare (consiously managing where I look), it is still wierd but less intense. This causes anxiety.
  - cycomanic 1y ago
    I still don't get it. What are the autistic traits? And are we talking about a clinical diagnosis of autism? The examples you give don't help me really. Nearly 100% of people I know (including myself) have small idiosyncracies that are comparable, i.e. one friend can't leave the house without checking multiple times that the stove is off (I would consider that a mild case of ocd but not autistic), my facial expression often gives people the impression that I'm bored or angry... It seems almost like you confirm that autism has become to mean neurodiversity (even in the mildest form). Maybe I should phrase the question different, how do we distinguish between autism and other forms of neurodiversity?
    - Ziomislaw 1y ago
      Heh, even doctors have trouble with it. For example I have both ASD and STPD. You could not have both in ICD 10 and can in ICD 11. And symptoms overlap. In my understanding the most definig thing is that you don't get body language support "in hardware" but can manage it "in software" (just you write the software youself with no spec and no way to validate the results).
    - magicalhippo 1y ago
      > one friend can't leave the house without checking multiple times that the stove is off (I would consider that a mild case of ocd but not autistic) Friend of the family was the same. One day they were very late for the a opera, and for once his wife managed to convince him he didn't need to check so they didn't get even more delayed. Once out of the opera, he sees countless missed calls. Turned out they had left the stove on with a pot on it, and the massive amounts of smoke had triggered the alarm. The alarm company had alerted the fire brigade which had resolved it. According to the firemen their house was saved by the fact that lid was on. Otherwise the flames would have gotten to the fat in the range hood and since their home was mostly made of wood that would have been real bad. So, the one time he skips his check, their house almost burns down. Guess what he kept on doing...
      - tsoukase 1y ago
- hgomersall 1y ago
  More and more it seems like all these specific disorders are really just certain neurodivergent profiles. It's why people struggle with diagnoses; the traits come in a mixed bag that present with different intensity, or even with "contradictory" traits.
  - shazbotter 1y ago
    Because they are. Autism is a diagnosis of a collection of symptoms, not a diagnosis of a root cause. We don't know what causes autism, and there may be many many things that do.
- MLR 1y ago
  Not who you were replying to, but I think I understand where you're coming from so I just wanted to contribute my point of view. I think it's becoming more and more clear that the thing we talk about as Autism doesn't exist as a specific condition, but rather what we currently talk about as Autism is probably a syndrome. I suspect eventually we'll home in on the various underlying genetic, environmental, and social causes and end up being able to categorise individuals as presenting with Autistic traits/Autism syndrome due to x/y/z rather than somebody being classed as Autistic.
- Muromec 1y ago
  >Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Because I struggle with the same thing, I don't know what autism is anymore. At a core, it's a sensory integration disorder that makes your life difficult. "Thousands of tabs open in my browser and I don't know which one the sound is coming from". The ways it manifests itself are many, but usually it's something around not reading social clues that are obvious for normies, taking things literally, not liking specific textures, foods, clothes materials, loud noises, too much unstructured noise and too many people present, either hearing lyrics or the music in the song, that kind of things. The mixer is broken and when you need to switch the channel or listen to two at the same time you fail at the task at hand.
- sethaurus 1y ago
  > Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Wikipedia's definition is fine; it's describing the real diagnostic criteria, not a stereotype. The crucial thing is that to a third party, those traits won't always be obvious. One of the axes upon which autistic people vary is their ability to mask those traits. The stereotype is a person with obvious symptoms who cannot (or at least does not) mask them socially. Presentations of autism frequently include some aspect of masking and some ability to "pass" as non-autistic, but with substantial cost and effort to the individual. > It's my impression that people now use the term autism is for pretty much any sort of neurodiversity (and even for traits within neuronormal, e.g. likes math). That may be so, but there are also plenty of people with actual diagnoses (and many others who meet the criteria) who don't fit the traditional image of an autistic person. That's why I object to the claim that the term "autistic" has "lost all meaning." What's been lost is the ability to tell at a glance who is autistic, because the diagnostic manual now applies the criteria consistently regardless of whether their impact is immediately obvious to a stranger. My personal experience, after getting diagnosed in my late 30s, has been observing the significant effort I spent masking — trying to pass as non-autistic — and choosing to use that energy differently. In that sense, I've probably become a little bit more obviously-autistic than before, but in a way which makes my life easier and more comfortable.

cycomanic 1y ago

Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Because I struggle with the same thing, I don't know what autism is anymore. It's my impression that people now use the term autism is for pretty much any sort of neurodiversity (and even for traits within neuronormal, e.g. likes math). For what it's worth Wikipedia says, ASD is: > a neurodevelopmental disorder by differences or difficulties in social communication and interaction, a need or strong preference for predictability and routine, sensory processing differences, focused interests, and repetitive behaviors. Would you say this is stereotyping ASD? I'm not trying to be combative but genuinely want to understand.

Ziomislaw 1y ago
Basically it means that when you are born you pick a random amound of traits (with different intensity each) at random from a big bag of autistic traits. Of which the most common are the ones you mentioned. Special interests and different body language are guaranteed. For example I don't have a very strong preference for routine (but it wasn't nice when my parents rearanged furniture in the kids room), I only am overwhelmed by wearing socks a little and sound a lot, like when I was at a hospital and 3 people started playing music from their phones at the same time I had to run away from the room and I have a wierd body language but I'm very social, though have trouble keeping in touch with people (can be managed using a calendar reminders but it still feels like a chore). With age you learn to cope with them (some don't do it), like I learned to compensate for my death stare (consiously managing where I look), it is still wierd but less intense. This causes anxiety.
- cycomanic 1y ago
  I still don't get it. What are the autistic traits? And are we talking about a clinical diagnosis of autism? The examples you give don't help me really. Nearly 100% of people I know (including myself) have small idiosyncracies that are comparable, i.e. one friend can't leave the house without checking multiple times that the stove is off (I would consider that a mild case of ocd but not autistic), my facial expression often gives people the impression that I'm bored or angry... It seems almost like you confirm that autism has become to mean neurodiversity (even in the mildest form). Maybe I should phrase the question different, how do we distinguish between autism and other forms of neurodiversity?
  - Ziomislaw 1y ago
    Heh, even doctors have trouble with it. For example I have both ASD and STPD. You could not have both in ICD 10 and can in ICD 11. And symptoms overlap. In my understanding the most definig thing is that you don't get body language support "in hardware" but can manage it "in software" (just you write the software youself with no spec and no way to validate the results).
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    > one friend can't leave the house without checking multiple times that the stove is off (I would consider that a mild case of ocd but not autistic) Friend of the family was the same. One day they were very late for the a opera, and for once his wife managed to convince him he didn't need to check so they didn't get even more delayed. Once out of the opera, he sees countless missed calls. Turned out they had left the stove on with a pot on it, and the massive amounts of smoke had triggered the alarm. The alarm company had alerted the fire brigade which had resolved it. According to the firemen their house was saved by the fact that lid was on. Otherwise the flames would have gotten to the fat in the range hood and since their home was mostly made of wood that would have been real bad. So, the one time he skips his check, their house almost burns down. Guess what he kept on doing...
    - tsoukase 1y ago
hgomersall 1y ago
More and more it seems like all these specific disorders are really just certain neurodivergent profiles. It's why people struggle with diagnoses; the traits come in a mixed bag that present with different intensity, or even with "contradictory" traits.
- shazbotter 1y ago
  Because they are. Autism is a diagnosis of a collection of symptoms, not a diagnosis of a root cause. We don't know what causes autism, and there may be many many things that do.
MLR 1y ago
Not who you were replying to, but I think I understand where you're coming from so I just wanted to contribute my point of view. I think it's becoming more and more clear that the thing we talk about as Autism doesn't exist as a specific condition, but rather what we currently talk about as Autism is probably a syndrome. I suspect eventually we'll home in on the various underlying genetic, environmental, and social causes and end up being able to categorise individuals as presenting with Autistic traits/Autism syndrome due to x/y/z rather than somebody being classed as Autistic.
Muromec 1y ago
>Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Because I struggle with the same thing, I don't know what autism is anymore. At a core, it's a sensory integration disorder that makes your life difficult. "Thousands of tabs open in my browser and I don't know which one the sound is coming from". The ways it manifests itself are many, but usually it's something around not reading social clues that are obvious for normies, taking things literally, not liking specific textures, foods, clothes materials, loud noises, too much unstructured noise and too many people present, either hearing lyrics or the music in the song, that kind of things. The mixer is broken and when you need to switch the channel or listen to two at the same time you fail at the task at hand.
sethaurus 1y ago
> Can you give a definition of what autism means then? Wikipedia's definition is fine; it's describing the real diagnostic criteria, not a stereotype. The crucial thing is that to a third party, those traits won't always be obvious. One of the axes upon which autistic people vary is their ability to mask those traits. The stereotype is a person with obvious symptoms who cannot (or at least does not) mask them socially. Presentations of autism frequently include some aspect of masking and some ability to "pass" as non-autistic, but with substantial cost and effort to the individual. > It's my impression that people now use the term autism is for pretty much any sort of neurodiversity (and even for traits within neuronormal, e.g. likes math). That may be so, but there are also plenty of people with actual diagnoses (and many others who meet the criteria) who don't fit the traditional image of an autistic person. That's why I object to the claim that the term "autistic" has "lost all meaning." What's been lost is the ability to tell at a glance who is autistic, because the diagnostic manual now applies the criteria consistently regardless of whether their impact is immediately obvious to a stranger. My personal experience, after getting diagnosed in my late 30s, has been observing the significant effort I spent masking — trying to pass as non-autistic — and choosing to use that energy differently. In that sense, I've probably become a little bit more obviously-autistic than before, but in a way which makes my life easier and more comfortable.