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That is not true, and even TFA points at why that can't be true: to your insurance, to vehicle taxes, etc. you declare the power _of the installed engine_, not

That is not true, and even TFA points at why that can't be true: to your insurance, to vehicle taxes, etc. you declare the power _of the installed engine_, not of whatever software interlocks you, your tax advisor, or the manufacturer have decided to install on it. TFA already says the car is registered at the maximum power level regardless of the actual software cap. So you are _quite literally_ paying for it, at least in terms of increased insurance and taxes.

tgaj 1y ago
It is true, the performance of the engine depends on the version of the software - manufacturer declares that this engine with this software can achieve this maximum performance and the software can't be legally nad officially tuned or changed. Btw in my country tax depends on engine displacement so it doesn't really change anything.
- AshamedCaptain 1y ago
  In most countries I know of (almost all of western EU), for electrical vehicles, you have to register the real maximum power output by the engine. If a software update allows you to increase that over the registered power, then you are in violation of motor vehicle codes and would need to a) pay a fine b) then update the registration, which is usually a $$$ process. If, like TFA, they register the power output as larger than the actual one in order to give room to these "unlocks", then you basically have a vehicle which can do less than what its registration says, which people tend to notice and riot about (you pay more taxes and insurance). In which country does the tax rate depend still only on volume?
  - mk89 1y ago
    You know that you can tune your engine right? And this is done with software that does ECU tuning. So in theory all cars are illegal? The issue is not that you can do it, the issue (as stated in the VW article) is how to update your car papers to reflect the changes. You do it illegally with your friends? You can't. VW does it through the subscription? (I guess) allowed. Don't ask me how, but when you buy such cars (with an engine that can support multiple configuration), you won't register your engine for something it is not. It's what's enabled to do. Simple example: you buy the ford ecoboost 1.0 100HPs. It won't be registered as the 150HPs model, although it's 100% the same hardware.
    - AshamedCaptain 1y ago
      > You know that you can tune your engine right? And this is done with software that does ECU tuning. So in theory all cars are illegal? You know that you CANNOT tune your engine, without going through your state's motor vehicle department, right ?? If the manufacturer tunes the ECU via whatever method and as consequence lowers/raises the power, good for him, but the final maximum power number is what will appear on the registration, and only in case of huge negligence can he change it afterwards on sold cars. > The issue is not that you can do it, the issue (as stated in the VW article) is how to update your car papers to reflect the changes. You do it illegally with your friends? You can't. VW does it through the subscription? (I guess) allowed. As I have repeated in literally each one of the 3 messages I have written in this thread: TFA clearly says the register the car for the maximum unlocked power level. Which means you _are literally paying for the maximum power even if you don't unlock it_, in terms of insurance and tax. > you buy the ford ecoboost 1.0 100HPs. It won't be registered as the 150HPs model, although it's 100% the same hardware. That's unsourced bullshit. I'm not familiar with Ford US cars, but Wikipedia clearly lists that the different models _are differently sized_. But, even if it was true, and software was used as in the interlock mechanism, Ford would have to register these engines as with their maximum, unlocked power, and that's something people tend to notice.
mttch 1y ago
Is this the same with EV though? The power of the installed engine is more nuanced, for example the full power is limited by software already to prevent wheel spin and improve range. Also, in the UK EVs are listed as a 0cc engine on the vehicle ownership records so effectively have no engine.
- argiopetech 1y ago
  Effectively and technically. A motor is not an engine.
mk89 1y ago
It is unfortunately true and pretty much everyone does it. You should look it up [0] or talk to car mechanics. Ps: Just to be clear, it's not 1 engine type installed in all the cars from the same brand. It's more of a family type, to reduce costs. [0]: a 2016 (!!) article https://www.automotive-iq.com/powertrain/articles/engine-downsizing-and-the-future https://www.automotive-iq.com/powertrain/articles/engine-dow...
- AshamedCaptain 1y ago
  That article says the opposite you're trying to say (it clearly says Ford uses physically different engines for different variations, just that the volume is no longer the comparable or even advertised metric). That engine volume, size (and other like metrics) no longer correlates with power has been a thing since the 1950s ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower ). Which is why since then the tax is not computed by size alone. It doesn't say about manufacturers using the same physical engine, and/or having software interlocks for engine power, which would imply that on paper (and on registration) you have an engine paid for X power that can only do Y (with Y < X). People would riot if they noticed such things, as like on what is claimed on TFA.
  - mk89 1y ago
    I got downsizing mixed up, you're right. We're talking about something I didn't look up for a while now, so in mind the downsizing was connected to the ability to resize the engine with software. While the downsizing was done for different reasons, the engine configuration can and is often provided through software. > One of the best-selling examples of ‘downsizing’ is Ford’s 1.0-litre EcoBoost petrol engine, which is available with outputs of 99bhp, 123bhp and 138bhp, meaning it effectively replaces 1.4, 1.6 and even some 1.8-litre engines from the past. > Other advances include the way the fuel is introduced into the engine, with powerful computers and software controlling fuel injection to the millisecond and allowing the engine to shut down in traffic where stop and start is fitted. They understood that with SW you can provide multiple configurations for the same engine. This I know for sure it's the case of Ford Ecoboost 1.0.

tgaj 1y ago

It is true, the performance of the engine depends on the version of the software - manufacturer declares that this engine with this software can achieve this maximum performance and the software can't be legally nad officially tuned or changed. Btw in my country tax depends on engine displacement so it doesn't really change anything.

AshamedCaptain 1y ago
In most countries I know of (almost all of western EU), for electrical vehicles, you have to register the real maximum power output by the engine. If a software update allows you to increase that over the registered power, then you are in violation of motor vehicle codes and would need to a) pay a fine b) then update the registration, which is usually a $$$ process. If, like TFA, they register the power output as larger than the actual one in order to give room to these "unlocks", then you basically have a vehicle which can do less than what its registration says, which people tend to notice and riot about (you pay more taxes and insurance). In which country does the tax rate depend still only on volume?
- mk89 1y ago
  You know that you can tune your engine right? And this is done with software that does ECU tuning. So in theory all cars are illegal? The issue is not that you can do it, the issue (as stated in the VW article) is how to update your car papers to reflect the changes. You do it illegally with your friends? You can't. VW does it through the subscription? (I guess) allowed. Don't ask me how, but when you buy such cars (with an engine that can support multiple configuration), you won't register your engine for something it is not. It's what's enabled to do. Simple example: you buy the ford ecoboost 1.0 100HPs. It won't be registered as the 150HPs model, although it's 100% the same hardware.
  - AshamedCaptain 1y ago
    > You know that you can tune your engine right? And this is done with software that does ECU tuning. So in theory all cars are illegal? You know that you CANNOT tune your engine, without going through your state's motor vehicle department, right ?? If the manufacturer tunes the ECU via whatever method and as consequence lowers/raises the power, good for him, but the final maximum power number is what will appear on the registration, and only in case of huge negligence can he change it afterwards on sold cars. > The issue is not that you can do it, the issue (as stated in the VW article) is how to update your car papers to reflect the changes. You do it illegally with your friends? You can't. VW does it through the subscription? (I guess) allowed. As I have repeated in literally each one of the 3 messages I have written in this thread: TFA clearly says the register the car for the maximum unlocked power level. Which means you _are literally paying for the maximum power even if you don't unlock it_, in terms of insurance and tax. > you buy the ford ecoboost 1.0 100HPs. It won't be registered as the 150HPs model, although it's 100% the same hardware. That's unsourced bullshit. I'm not familiar with Ford US cars, but Wikipedia clearly lists that the different models _are differently sized_. But, even if it was true, and software was used as in the interlock mechanism, Ford would have to register these engines as with their maximum, unlocked power, and that's something people tend to notice.

mttch 1y ago

Is this the same with EV though? The power of the installed engine is more nuanced, for example the full power is limited by software already to prevent wheel spin and improve range. Also, in the UK EVs are listed as a 0cc engine on the vehicle ownership records so effectively have no engine.

argiopetech 1y ago
Effectively and technically. A motor is not an engine.

mk89 1y ago

It is unfortunately true and pretty much everyone does it. You should look it up [0] or talk to car mechanics. Ps: Just to be clear, it's not 1 engine type installed in all the cars from the same brand. It's more of a family type, to reduce costs. [0]: a 2016 (!!) article https://www.automotive-iq.com/powertrain/articles/engine-downsizing-and-the-future https://www.automotive-iq.com/powertrain/articles/engine-dow...

AshamedCaptain 1y ago
That article says the opposite you're trying to say (it clearly says Ford uses physically different engines for different variations, just that the volume is no longer the comparable or even advertised metric). That engine volume, size (and other like metrics) no longer correlates with power has been a thing since the 1950s ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower ). Which is why since then the tax is not computed by size alone. It doesn't say about manufacturers using the same physical engine, and/or having software interlocks for engine power, which would imply that on paper (and on registration) you have an engine paid for X power that can only do Y (with Y < X). People would riot if they noticed such things, as like on what is claimed on TFA.
- mk89 1y ago
  I got downsizing mixed up, you're right. We're talking about something I didn't look up for a while now, so in mind the downsizing was connected to the ability to resize the engine with software. While the downsizing was done for different reasons, the engine configuration can and is often provided through software. > One of the best-selling examples of ‘downsizing’ is Ford’s 1.0-litre EcoBoost petrol engine, which is available with outputs of 99bhp, 123bhp and 138bhp, meaning it effectively replaces 1.4, 1.6 and even some 1.8-litre engines from the past. > Other advances include the way the fuel is introduced into the engine, with powerful computers and software controlling fuel injection to the millisecond and allowing the engine to shut down in traffic where stop and start is fitted. They understood that with SW you can provide multiple configurations for the same engine. This I know for sure it's the case of Ford Ecoboost 1.0.