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Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very l

Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very long time. The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. In VW's case, this appears to be an act of desperation. Consumers don't have to "subscribe" to this sort of gamesmanship. There are alternatives --- as evidenced by VW earnings --- down almost 40% over the past year.

JFingleton 1y ago
I never trusted VW after the emissions scandal : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno Now I trust them even less, if that's even possible .
- mk89 1y ago
  The emission scandal is something that VW paid while literally everyone else didn't - they got caught because they installed cheating software and deinstalled it after the test lab, while the others did pretty much the same in the same software which was more sophisticated, as it could somehow recognize the car wasn't being driven in real use cases, which reduced the emissions, to drastically increase once it was driven outside. So yeah, Ford, Nissan, etc., also did their cheating, but due to some loopholes they are all good :)
  - jqpabc123 1y ago
    So yeah, Ford, Nissan, etc., also did their cheating, but due to some loopholes they are all good :) Just provide your proof of this to one of the millions of greedy lawyers out there and you can easily become rich.
    - netsharc 1y ago
      I guess grandfather isn't that accurate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/07/08/germanys-biggest-automakers-fined-875-million-for-emissions-collusion/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/07/08/german... https://www.theregister.com/2018/07/10/nissan_admits_falsifying_emission_data/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/07/10/nissan_admits_falsify... The difference is, some people say "VW, never again!", meanwhile they don't notice that all car manufacturers are probably guilty. There is an old news article that said UK, French and German authorities argued to keep lax emissions testing (e.g. "they should be done while the car is going downhill!"), no doubt due to their car industry lobbyists, but since search engines suck now I can't find it anymore
  - toast0 1y ago
    IIRC, VWs in the wild would pass emissions tests, as long as only the drive wheels moved and the steering wasn't touched. Of course, most people drive on roads, so the non-drive wheels move, and most trips involve turns. Since the emissions tests were conducted on a dynamometer, the average affected car would likely pass. Researchers did tests in real world conditions and found the emissions varied significantly.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    So basically VW got shit all over not for cheating but for being the lowest dollar, lowest effort, trashiest implementation of cheating that makes a fool out of the regulating agency. That's actually makes perfect sense if you're jaded enough
- hnlmorg 1y ago
  You’re going to struggle to find any car manufacturer that you can trust then because they all cheat. And this subscription trend is exactly that, a common trend these days. It’s far from unique to VW. Public transport (in the UK at least) cheats the system whenever they can too. So you’re probably best sticking to push bikes.
  - jqpabc123 1y ago
    It’s far from unique to VW. I have found that there are very few absolutes in life --- so use your best judgment. In my judgment, European manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon more than most. Probably out of desperation and necessity --- they can't compete solely on price. As another example, Mercedes vehicles seem to be good for about 3 years before the planned maintenance (aka gouging) really starts kicking in. I've known people with $10K bills for the scheduled maintenance from a dealership --- for a 3-4 year old car that seems to be running just fine. "Mercedes-Benz is one of the fastest depreciating car brands in the world!" https://yourgreatcar.com/do-mercedes-hold-their-value/ https://yourgreatcar.com/do-mercedes-hold-their-value/
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      For used car buyers this is a boon. You can pick up a nice older E class for a few thousand dollars if you know a bit about what to look for and what to avoid.
      - jqpabc123 1y ago
        Yes, this might make sense if you could do the maintenance yourself --- but this is not at all easy or even possible in some cases without expensive/specialized electronic tools --- and this is all by design. Something that should be simple like changing the battery is actually an intricate process on some models involving all sorts of resets and nonsense. A mistake can "brick" your car. I know someone who did this and had to have the car towed to the dealership where they were subjected to a good ole fashioned ($$$) reaming --- all for a dead battery. https://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercedes-battery-replacement-diy/ https://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercedes-battery-replacement-d... For me, a 5 year old Mercedes is just not worth the headache --- and again, this is by design IMO. If you choose to buy one for basic transportation, my advice is make sure you have a backup vehicle.
- Incipient 1y ago
  They're reducing manufacturing costs by producing the same car, and just selling it at different prices based on performance. I think this is quite common with EVs especially, where the same motors are used in the base and performance models - they do normally add other stuff like bigger batteries etc too, but also cost a lot more than just 600 quid extra.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - DennisP 1y ago
    What I mostly see from EVs is varying the number of motors. You get the manufacturing cost reduction on your motors without having to actually over-spec your base model. Even this isn't the whole story though, at least at the high end. The Model S Plaid has an extra motor but also uses different rear motors, designed to be more efficient at high RPM. And Tesla puts a lot of emphasis on parts commonality in general.
mk89 1y ago
To be honest, I prefer this to what other car makers do. Example: Ford. In many cases they ship 1 engine type and restrict it by software. This way they reduce manufacturing costs, I understand, it's just unfair that you have the same engine of someone with officially more horsepower and all you can do is cheat (with software that enables the feature) and hence say goodbye to your insurance.
- whartung 1y ago
  I have one of these, but it’s not a Ford. It’s a BMW motorcycle. At the time, the F-series came in the F-750 and F-850 models. The motors are identical, the computers restrict the top end horsepower. But, those aren’t the only differences. The 850 is more designed for off road than the 750. The bike is taller, large front wheel, spoked wheels. I’m have the 750, the more street oriented version. But here’s the thing. As they say in motorsports, there’s no replacement for displacement. My peak HP may be down to the 850, but I get all of the torque, which is one aspect that makes a motorcycle better to ride. Torque really helps with acceleration, and my bike will get to ludicrous speed quite handily. Also in some jurisdictions, riders are limited by HP as to what bikes they’re allowed to ride due to tiered licensing. The 750 falls under one of those lines. So I can’t speak to Ford, but I think the way BMW uses this in the F-series is quite reasonable on several levels.
  - mk89 1y ago
    This is a very specific case, to be honest, and I am happy you can enjoy your motorbike like the model with more HPs, etc. The thing is - for mass production, it has become cheaper for a manufacturer to produce 1 engine type and block it with software rather then 2,3...N types and to allow people to choose. The subscription model in my opinion makes sense, because you can also decide to unlock the feature entirely and it stays. If not, you can try and decide. It sounds reasonable to me - they didn't sell you 4 wheels and a steering wheel with "entry level" model that can be upgraded to "all in the entry model + car seats, radio" etc. We're talking about some very specific upgrades that make the car cost less by default and yet still good. Who the hell needs 230HPs on a daily basis? So shrink that, make the entry model more reasonable, and let them upgrade if they want to.
jillesvangurp 1y ago
> down almost 40% over the past year. That has more to do with their legacy ICE business than with their EVs. Their EV business is apparently growing quite nicely. And they have issues with tariffs in the US of course. But so do all their competitors. > Consumers don't have to "subscribe" to this sort of gamesmanship. But some happily do. Modern cars have a lot of software that defines their behavior and characteristics. Getting access to some of the feature flags is a natural control point. There's no need to introduce a lot of variation at the hardware level. In the end you get what you pay for. If you can get a better deal for the same money, you should take it of course. Nobody stops you. Or if on the other hand horsepower doesn't really matter to you and you would mostly drive the car in economy mode, you might pay a bit less for a decent car. EVs offer a ridiculous amount of horsepower and torque. Limiting that a bit via software isn't that strange and actually necessary to prevent them from shredding their own tires. Conservative settings are better for the tires and limit the amount of wear and tear (and resulting warranty and insurance claims). VW actually uses the same base platform for a lot of different cars and sub brands. At the hardware level there is far less difference than the amount of models would suggest. Any differences in driving experience are mostly software. And the cool thing with software is that you can change things. So, why not try to charge for that? I personally wouldn't care about paying a subscription for stuff like this. But I appreciate some people might care enough to hand over some cash that don't necessarily have a lot of cash on hand to outright buy a more expensive model. And technically any car that has the option, is unmonetized potential. So, a subscription isn't the weirdest thing to tap into that potential. Many people lease their car anyway. So, they are already paying per month. Pay a little extra for some redundant fun on the daily commute. Or don't and pay a little less. I don't think that's consumer hostile. Of course the FOMO for pointless features that this creates causes some people to get irrationally angry about the perceived injustice of somebody not giving them something on the cheap.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
  'happily'? I think not. Sure there are features that people want and would pay for, but I'd bet given the option that a lot of people would prefer to pay a bit more up front then have a monthly subscription. Personally, I want that choice back. Every subscription like this is a shift of power from the consumer to a corporation with all those TOS that can be unilaterally changed at will and features that can be remotely disabled by some half-assed AI.
lurk2 1y ago
> The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. Passenger airline carriers and printer manufacturers have a similar model of using their flagship products (flights and printers) as loss leaders for their actual products (credit cards and ink).
- jqpabc123 1y ago
  For Euro cars, the "actual" product is parts, service/maintenance and subscriptions.
whycome 1y ago
Do we need this many car companies now? There’s so little variation between your typical SUV that they’re looking the same. I wish we had a better and more modular base to work with. Can we have a base car and then make the options (seat type, color, engine, finishes, light style, etc) where the money is made? Maybe even make a system for other manufacturers to make those interior pieces. Like software developers for a platform. And you could encourage regularly changing or upgrading. And make a new paint job easier. It’s just insane that people are expected to drop $40k on a vehicle every few years.

JFingleton 1y ago

I never trusted VW after the emissions scandal : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno Now I trust them even less, if that's even possible .

mk89 1y ago
The emission scandal is something that VW paid while literally everyone else didn't - they got caught because they installed cheating software and deinstalled it after the test lab, while the others did pretty much the same in the same software which was more sophisticated, as it could somehow recognize the car wasn't being driven in real use cases, which reduced the emissions, to drastically increase once it was driven outside. So yeah, Ford, Nissan, etc., also did their cheating, but due to some loopholes they are all good :)
- jqpabc123 1y ago
  So yeah, Ford, Nissan, etc., also did their cheating, but due to some loopholes they are all good :) Just provide your proof of this to one of the millions of greedy lawyers out there and you can easily become rich.
  - netsharc 1y ago
    I guess grandfather isn't that accurate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/07/08/germanys-biggest-automakers-fined-875-million-for-emissions-collusion/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/07/08/german... https://www.theregister.com/2018/07/10/nissan_admits_falsifying_emission_data/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/07/10/nissan_admits_falsify... The difference is, some people say "VW, never again!", meanwhile they don't notice that all car manufacturers are probably guilty. There is an old news article that said UK, French and German authorities argued to keep lax emissions testing (e.g. "they should be done while the car is going downhill!"), no doubt due to their car industry lobbyists, but since search engines suck now I can't find it anymore
- toast0 1y ago
  IIRC, VWs in the wild would pass emissions tests, as long as only the drive wheels moved and the steering wasn't touched. Of course, most people drive on roads, so the non-drive wheels move, and most trips involve turns. Since the emissions tests were conducted on a dynamometer, the average affected car would likely pass. Researchers did tests in real world conditions and found the emissions varied significantly.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  So basically VW got shit all over not for cheating but for being the lowest dollar, lowest effort, trashiest implementation of cheating that makes a fool out of the regulating agency. That's actually makes perfect sense if you're jaded enough
hnlmorg 1y ago
You’re going to struggle to find any car manufacturer that you can trust then because they all cheat. And this subscription trend is exactly that, a common trend these days. It’s far from unique to VW. Public transport (in the UK at least) cheats the system whenever they can too. So you’re probably best sticking to push bikes.
- jqpabc123 1y ago
  It’s far from unique to VW. I have found that there are very few absolutes in life --- so use your best judgment. In my judgment, European manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon more than most. Probably out of desperation and necessity --- they can't compete solely on price. As another example, Mercedes vehicles seem to be good for about 3 years before the planned maintenance (aka gouging) really starts kicking in. I've known people with $10K bills for the scheduled maintenance from a dealership --- for a 3-4 year old car that seems to be running just fine. "Mercedes-Benz is one of the fastest depreciating car brands in the world!" https://yourgreatcar.com/do-mercedes-hold-their-value/ https://yourgreatcar.com/do-mercedes-hold-their-value/
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    For used car buyers this is a boon. You can pick up a nice older E class for a few thousand dollars if you know a bit about what to look for and what to avoid.
    - jqpabc123 1y ago
      Yes, this might make sense if you could do the maintenance yourself --- but this is not at all easy or even possible in some cases without expensive/specialized electronic tools --- and this is all by design. Something that should be simple like changing the battery is actually an intricate process on some models involving all sorts of resets and nonsense. A mistake can "brick" your car. I know someone who did this and had to have the car towed to the dealership where they were subjected to a good ole fashioned ($$$) reaming --- all for a dead battery. https://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercedes-battery-replacement-diy/ https://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercedes-battery-replacement-d... For me, a 5 year old Mercedes is just not worth the headache --- and again, this is by design IMO. If you choose to buy one for basic transportation, my advice is make sure you have a backup vehicle.
Incipient 1y ago
They're reducing manufacturing costs by producing the same car, and just selling it at different prices based on performance. I think this is quite common with EVs especially, where the same motors are used in the base and performance models - they do normally add other stuff like bigger batteries etc too, but also cost a lot more than just 600 quid extra.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- DennisP 1y ago
  What I mostly see from EVs is varying the number of motors. You get the manufacturing cost reduction on your motors without having to actually over-spec your base model. Even this isn't the whole story though, at least at the high end. The Model S Plaid has an extra motor but also uses different rear motors, designed to be more efficient at high RPM. And Tesla puts a lot of emphasis on parts commonality in general.

mk89 1y ago

To be honest, I prefer this to what other car makers do. Example: Ford. In many cases they ship 1 engine type and restrict it by software. This way they reduce manufacturing costs, I understand, it's just unfair that you have the same engine of someone with officially more horsepower and all you can do is cheat (with software that enables the feature) and hence say goodbye to your insurance.

whartung 1y ago
I have one of these, but it’s not a Ford. It’s a BMW motorcycle. At the time, the F-series came in the F-750 and F-850 models. The motors are identical, the computers restrict the top end horsepower. But, those aren’t the only differences. The 850 is more designed for off road than the 750. The bike is taller, large front wheel, spoked wheels. I’m have the 750, the more street oriented version. But here’s the thing. As they say in motorsports, there’s no replacement for displacement. My peak HP may be down to the 850, but I get all of the torque, which is one aspect that makes a motorcycle better to ride. Torque really helps with acceleration, and my bike will get to ludicrous speed quite handily. Also in some jurisdictions, riders are limited by HP as to what bikes they’re allowed to ride due to tiered licensing. The 750 falls under one of those lines. So I can’t speak to Ford, but I think the way BMW uses this in the F-series is quite reasonable on several levels.
- mk89 1y ago
  This is a very specific case, to be honest, and I am happy you can enjoy your motorbike like the model with more HPs, etc. The thing is - for mass production, it has become cheaper for a manufacturer to produce 1 engine type and block it with software rather then 2,3...N types and to allow people to choose. The subscription model in my opinion makes sense, because you can also decide to unlock the feature entirely and it stays. If not, you can try and decide. It sounds reasonable to me - they didn't sell you 4 wheels and a steering wheel with "entry level" model that can be upgraded to "all in the entry model + car seats, radio" etc. We're talking about some very specific upgrades that make the car cost less by default and yet still good. Who the hell needs 230HPs on a daily basis? So shrink that, make the entry model more reasonable, and let them upgrade if they want to.

jillesvangurp 1y ago

> down almost 40% over the past year. That has more to do with their legacy ICE business than with their EVs. Their EV business is apparently growing quite nicely. And they have issues with tariffs in the US of course. But so do all their competitors. > Consumers don't have to "subscribe" to this sort of gamesmanship. But some happily do. Modern cars have a lot of software that defines their behavior and characteristics. Getting access to some of the feature flags is a natural control point. There's no need to introduce a lot of variation at the hardware level. In the end you get what you pay for. If you can get a better deal for the same money, you should take it of course. Nobody stops you. Or if on the other hand horsepower doesn't really matter to you and you would mostly drive the car in economy mode, you might pay a bit less for a decent car. EVs offer a ridiculous amount of horsepower and torque. Limiting that a bit via software isn't that strange and actually necessary to prevent them from shredding their own tires. Conservative settings are better for the tires and limit the amount of wear and tear (and resulting warranty and insurance claims). VW actually uses the same base platform for a lot of different cars and sub brands. At the hardware level there is far less difference than the amount of models would suggest. Any differences in driving experience are mostly software. And the cool thing with software is that you can change things. So, why not try to charge for that? I personally wouldn't care about paying a subscription for stuff like this. But I appreciate some people might care enough to hand over some cash that don't necessarily have a lot of cash on hand to outright buy a more expensive model. And technically any car that has the option, is unmonetized potential. So, a subscription isn't the weirdest thing to tap into that potential. Many people lease their car anyway. So, they are already paying per month. Pay a little extra for some redundant fun on the daily commute. Or don't and pay a little less. I don't think that's consumer hostile. Of course the FOMO for pointless features that this creates causes some people to get irrationally angry about the perceived injustice of somebody not giving them something on the cheap.

Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
'happily'? I think not. Sure there are features that people want and would pay for, but I'd bet given the option that a lot of people would prefer to pay a bit more up front then have a monthly subscription. Personally, I want that choice back. Every subscription like this is a shift of power from the consumer to a corporation with all those TOS that can be unilaterally changed at will and features that can be remotely disabled by some half-assed AI.

lurk2 1y ago

> The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. Passenger airline carriers and printer manufacturers have a similar model of using their flagship products (flights and printers) as loss leaders for their actual products (credit cards and ink).

jqpabc123 1y ago
For Euro cars, the "actual" product is parts, service/maintenance and subscriptions.

whycome 1y ago

Do we need this many car companies now? There’s so little variation between your typical SUV that they’re looking the same. I wish we had a better and more modular base to work with. Can we have a base car and then make the options (seat type, color, engine, finishes, light style, etc) where the money is made? Maybe even make a system for other manufacturers to make those interior pieces. Like software developers for a platform. And you could encourage regularly changing or upgrading. And make a new paint job easier. It’s just insane that people are expected to drop $40k on a vehicle every few years.