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I'm sure that by having fewer parts in the logistics chain they can build a car cheaper. They then define models via software almost for free. And that would be

I'm sure that by having fewer parts in the logistics chain they can build a car cheaper. They then define models via software almost for free. And that would be great if the saving was passed to the consumer. Instead every saving is definitely captured by the manufacturer and the consumer gets to buy a car that definitely does everything but "computer says no". But the situation is objectively worse than today because it doesn't just involve a "software defined car" but a "subscription defined car". Today you buy your specs and own them, you're not at the manufacturer's mercy on the monthly price. I'm afraid it's just a matter of time until everyone does it. It only takes one company to go first and take the heat to make it mainstream, the rest will follow.

spicyusername 1y ago
And then all we'll need is a federal government that's friendly to free trade and all of the domestic auto manufacturers will go out of business because they can't compete. It might not happen this year, it might not happen this decade, but it will eventually happen. Organizing your business in such an anti-consumer way is a huge liability, but executives who will have extracted all the wealth anyways will probably be long gone by then.
- ExoticPearTree 1y ago
  Or cry foul when the chinese EV manufacturares give you more bang for the buck because they don’t play silly games like this.
hinkley 1y ago
So apparently we will download a car.
- mdp2021 1y ago
  And (again) possess it but not own it.
  - hinkley 1y ago
    Friend’s adult kid has a tshirt: if buying isn’t owning then copying isn’t theft.
austhrow743 1y ago
Why would this saving in particular get captured by the manufacturer?
- Esophagus4 1y ago
  I’ve always wanted to see the data for this. Very curious to know - are the efficiencies of scale being passed on, or is this just additional revenue for manufacturers?
  - simonh 1y ago
    If it’s just extra revenue that implies that, if the manufacturer actually made 2 physically different models, they could just sell the cheaper model at the expensive model price and then charge extra for the upgrade on top of that. In other words there is zero customer price sensitivity. That seems unlikely.
lonelyasacloud 1y ago
> Instead every saving is definitely captured by the manufacturer and the consumer gets to buy a car that definitely does everything but "computer says no". Or enabling full power puts more load on the vehicle's components and costs the manufacture more in warrant and reduced resale values. Suspect it is a bit of both, but without access to the books.
ExoticPearTree 1y ago
Its a funny situation: they a put larger battery in the car, which makes the car heavier. Then they derate the battery to give you less mileage with the added “benefit” that you carry with you a deadweight that you can’t get rid of and contributes further to reduced mileage. And someone at VW looked at this and said: amazing idea. My single take from this is that batteries have become so cheap that you can put more in a car and still make a good profit. It would have been nice if the savings would be passed on to the consumer.
- Kudos 1y ago
  I'm confused, what do you mean by "derate the battery", and how would that cause some of the battery to be deadweight? It sounds to me like they're just limiting the kW output of the pack.
  - JohnFen 1y ago
    > It sounds to me like they're just limiting the kW output of the pack. That's what he means by derating. Using the battery as if it were specced lower than it is. The deadweight is that you're hauling around a battery that is heavier than it needs to be if it were actually that spec.
  - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
    I mean you have a 100kW battery that is limited by the software at 70-80kW. This is what I mean by de-rating. Secondly, a 100kW battery is heavier than a 70-80kW one. If you don’t pony up for the upgrade fee, you carry around all the time probably 50kgs of useless mass. More mass, less mileage.
    - Kudos 1y ago
      There's no additional battery cells, is the 50kg extra cooling or something?
      - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
GuB-42 1y ago
It is actually a good thing for consumers buying the base model as their car is effectively subsidized by those who pay for the subscription. Note that here, subscription is just an option, you can also buy the permanent upgrade.

spicyusername 1y ago

And then all we'll need is a federal government that's friendly to free trade and all of the domestic auto manufacturers will go out of business because they can't compete. It might not happen this year, it might not happen this decade, but it will eventually happen. Organizing your business in such an anti-consumer way is a huge liability, but executives who will have extracted all the wealth anyways will probably be long gone by then.

ExoticPearTree 1y ago
Or cry foul when the chinese EV manufacturares give you more bang for the buck because they don’t play silly games like this.

hinkley 1y ago

So apparently we will download a car.

mdp2021 1y ago
And (again) possess it but not own it.
- hinkley 1y ago
  Friend’s adult kid has a tshirt: if buying isn’t owning then copying isn’t theft.

austhrow743 1y ago

Why would this saving in particular get captured by the manufacturer?

Esophagus4 1y ago
I’ve always wanted to see the data for this. Very curious to know - are the efficiencies of scale being passed on, or is this just additional revenue for manufacturers?
- simonh 1y ago
  If it’s just extra revenue that implies that, if the manufacturer actually made 2 physically different models, they could just sell the cheaper model at the expensive model price and then charge extra for the upgrade on top of that. In other words there is zero customer price sensitivity. That seems unlikely.

lonelyasacloud 1y ago

> Instead every saving is definitely captured by the manufacturer and the consumer gets to buy a car that definitely does everything but "computer says no". Or enabling full power puts more load on the vehicle's components and costs the manufacture more in warrant and reduced resale values. Suspect it is a bit of both, but without access to the books.

ExoticPearTree 1y ago

Its a funny situation: they a put larger battery in the car, which makes the car heavier. Then they derate the battery to give you less mileage with the added “benefit” that you carry with you a deadweight that you can’t get rid of and contributes further to reduced mileage. And someone at VW looked at this and said: amazing idea. My single take from this is that batteries have become so cheap that you can put more in a car and still make a good profit. It would have been nice if the savings would be passed on to the consumer.

Kudos 1y ago
I'm confused, what do you mean by "derate the battery", and how would that cause some of the battery to be deadweight? It sounds to me like they're just limiting the kW output of the pack.
- JohnFen 1y ago
  > It sounds to me like they're just limiting the kW output of the pack. That's what he means by derating. Using the battery as if it were specced lower than it is. The deadweight is that you're hauling around a battery that is heavier than it needs to be if it were actually that spec.
- ExoticPearTree 1y ago
  I mean you have a 100kW battery that is limited by the software at 70-80kW. This is what I mean by de-rating. Secondly, a 100kW battery is heavier than a 70-80kW one. If you don’t pony up for the upgrade fee, you carry around all the time probably 50kgs of useless mass. More mass, less mileage.
  - Kudos 1y ago
    There's no additional battery cells, is the 50kg extra cooling or something?
    - ExoticPearTree 1y ago

GuB-42 1y ago

It is actually a good thing for consumers buying the base model as their car is effectively subsidized by those who pay for the subscription. Note that here, subscription is just an option, you can also buy the permanent upgrade.