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> I think the most sensible answer would be something like UBI. Having had the experience of living under communist regime prior to 1989 I have zero trust in t

> I think the most sensible answer would be something like UBI. Having had the experience of living under communist regime prior to 1989 I have zero trust in the state providing support, while I am totally dependent and have no recourse. Instead I would rather rely on my own two hands like my grandparents did. I see a world where we can build anything we want with our own hands and AI automation. Jobs might become optional.

magicalist 1y ago
> I see a world where we can build anything we want with our own hands and AI automation. Jobs might become optional. Unless your two hands are building murderbots, though, it doesn't matter what you're building if you can't grow or buy food. I haven't personally seen how UBI could end up working viably, but I also don't see any other system working without much more massive societal changes than anyone is talking about. Meanwhile, there are many many people that are very invested in maintaining massive differentials between the richest and the poorest that will be working against even the most modest changes.
- griffzhowl 1y ago
  > I also don't see any other system working without much more massive societal changes than anyone is talking about. The other system is that the mass of people are coerced to work for tokens that buy them the right to food and to live in a house. i.e. the present system but potentially with more menial and arduous labour. Hopefully we can think of something else
kannanvijayan 1y ago
I'd argue against the entire perspective of evaluating every policy idea along one-dimensional modernist polemics put forwards as "the least worst solution to all of human economy for all time". Right now the communists in China are beating us at capitalism. I'm starting to find the entire analytical framework of using these ideologies ("communism", "capitalism") to evaluate _anything_ to be highly suspect, and maybe even one of the west's greatest mistakes in the last century. > I see a world where we can build anything we want with our own hands and AI automation. Jobs might become optional. I was a teenager back in the 90s. There was much talk then about the productivity boosts from computers, the internet, automation, and how it would enable people to have so much more free time. Interesting thing is that the productivity gains happened. But the other side of that equation never really materialized. Who knows, maybe it'll be different this time.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  I’m not certain we don’t have free time, but I’m not sure how to test that. Is it possible that we just feel busier nowadays because we spend more time watching TV? Work hours haven’t dropped precipitously, but maybe people are spending more time in the office just screwing around.
- leshow 1y ago
  It's the same here. Calling what the west has a "free-market capitalist" system is also a lie. At every level there is massive state intervention. Most discoveries come from publicly funded work going on at research universities or from billions pushed into the defense sector that has developed all the technology we use today from computers to the internet to all the technology in your phone. That's no more a free-market system than China is "communist" either. I think the reality is just that governments use words and have an official ideology, but you have to ignore that and analyze their actions if you want to understand how they behave.
  - juniperus 1y ago
    not to mention that most corporations in the US are owned by the public through the stock market and the arrangement of the American pension scheme, and public ownership of the means of production is one of the core tenets of communism. Every country on Earth is socialist and has been socialist for well over a century. Once you consider not just state investment in research, but centralized credit, tax-funded public infrastructure, etc. well yeah, terms such as "capitalism" become used in a totally meaningless way by most people lol.
    - leshow 1y ago
      I think you're confusing publicly available shares with actual ownership by the public in a way that's no consistent with the way any socialist would think about ownership. Stock may be available to anyone in the sense that anyone could buy shares, but actual ownership and decision-making is highly concentrated. Real public ownership would mean something quite different.
  - 1y ago
leshow 1y ago
In your world where jobs become "optional" because a private company has decided to fire half their workforce, and the state also does not provide some kind of support, what do all the "optional" people do?
- lotsoweiners 1y ago
  Murder more CEOs and then start working your way down the org chart? Blow up corporate headquarters, data centers, etc? Lots of ways to be productive.
juniperus 1y ago
You will still need energy and resources.

magicalist 1y ago

> I see a world where we can build anything we want with our own hands and AI automation. Jobs might become optional. Unless your two hands are building murderbots, though, it doesn't matter what you're building if you can't grow or buy food. I haven't personally seen how UBI could end up working viably, but I also don't see any other system working without much more massive societal changes than anyone is talking about. Meanwhile, there are many many people that are very invested in maintaining massive differentials between the richest and the poorest that will be working against even the most modest changes.

griffzhowl 1y ago
> I also don't see any other system working without much more massive societal changes than anyone is talking about. The other system is that the mass of people are coerced to work for tokens that buy them the right to food and to live in a house. i.e. the present system but potentially with more menial and arduous labour. Hopefully we can think of something else

kannanvijayan 1y ago

I'd argue against the entire perspective of evaluating every policy idea along one-dimensional modernist polemics put forwards as "the least worst solution to all of human economy for all time". Right now the communists in China are beating us at capitalism. I'm starting to find the entire analytical framework of using these ideologies ("communism", "capitalism") to evaluate _anything_ to be highly suspect, and maybe even one of the west's greatest mistakes in the last century. > I see a world where we can build anything we want with our own hands and AI automation. Jobs might become optional. I was a teenager back in the 90s. There was much talk then about the productivity boosts from computers, the internet, automation, and how it would enable people to have so much more free time. Interesting thing is that the productivity gains happened. But the other side of that equation never really materialized. Who knows, maybe it'll be different this time.

bee_rider 1y ago
I’m not certain we don’t have free time, but I’m not sure how to test that. Is it possible that we just feel busier nowadays because we spend more time watching TV? Work hours haven’t dropped precipitously, but maybe people are spending more time in the office just screwing around.
leshow 1y ago
It's the same here. Calling what the west has a "free-market capitalist" system is also a lie. At every level there is massive state intervention. Most discoveries come from publicly funded work going on at research universities or from billions pushed into the defense sector that has developed all the technology we use today from computers to the internet to all the technology in your phone. That's no more a free-market system than China is "communist" either. I think the reality is just that governments use words and have an official ideology, but you have to ignore that and analyze their actions if you want to understand how they behave.
- juniperus 1y ago
  not to mention that most corporations in the US are owned by the public through the stock market and the arrangement of the American pension scheme, and public ownership of the means of production is one of the core tenets of communism. Every country on Earth is socialist and has been socialist for well over a century. Once you consider not just state investment in research, but centralized credit, tax-funded public infrastructure, etc. well yeah, terms such as "capitalism" become used in a totally meaningless way by most people lol.
  - leshow 1y ago
    I think you're confusing publicly available shares with actual ownership by the public in a way that's no consistent with the way any socialist would think about ownership. Stock may be available to anyone in the sense that anyone could buy shares, but actual ownership and decision-making is highly concentrated. Real public ownership would mean something quite different.
- 1y ago

leshow 1y ago

In your world where jobs become "optional" because a private company has decided to fire half their workforce, and the state also does not provide some kind of support, what do all the "optional" people do?

lotsoweiners 1y ago
Murder more CEOs and then start working your way down the org chart? Blow up corporate headquarters, data centers, etc? Lots of ways to be productive.

juniperus 1y ago

You will still need energy and resources.