4 ms·

Ah yes, the BBB that fixed the rules that trump changed last time.

ivewonyoung 1y ago
Why didn't the Biden admin "fix" the rule before it took effect in Jan 2022? They passed several bills, they could've have included the repeal. It took effect on the democrats watch, because of their inaction. Edit: Republican Marco Rubio introduced a clean bill to repeal the changes in 2023. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2823 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/282... The Democrat controlled Senate blocked it from coming to a vote. Why does HN always blame only Republicans for this change?
- hn_acc1 1y ago
  It's possible you need a supermajority or something to specifically "undo" laws passed by a previous session of congress - something Biden did not have.
  - ivewonyoung 1y ago
    Then how did Republicans repeal it just recently with zero Dem votes? Repealing it had Republican support during the Biden term too, they even introduced a bill in2023 to repeal it which the Democrats killed. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2823 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/282... Democrats really wanted the changes to take place since their platform is all about higher taxes on companies and high earners.
    - rezonant 1y ago
      > which the Democrats killed Do you have a source for this claim? The congressional record says only that it died in the Finance Committee
      - ivewonyoung 1y ago
        Democrats controlled both the Finance Committee and the Senate. There was no way for Republicans to stop a bill from coming to vote. So it was necessarily stopped from moving ahead by Democrats despite Republican support. Another reason for the party in power blocking the vote would if the President opposed it, to prevent the scenario of Biden having to veto. Edit: Blocked from being able to post new comments by HN because I am getting heavily downvoted for posting inconvenient facts and arguments. Stay classy, HN.
        rezonant 1y ago
        So that would be this Finance committee right? > The Senate Finance Committee roster for the 118th Congress includes 14 Democrats and 13 Republicans, with three new GOP members recently appointed. > https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/senate-finance-finalizes-roster-with-three-new-republicans/ https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/senate-finance-finalizes... Hardly an unbeatable majority for Democrats on this committee. Especially since research and development is one of the main reasons taxation on higher income classes is effective: The idea is you'll be taxed if you want to take it as profit, but if you advance the state of the art, innovate, or create new technology then you can deduct that. The high tax rates of the US post WWII up to Reagan worked so well because of this combination: It was incentivized for businesses to reinvest their profits into R&D, since they'd hopefully be able to scale their profits if the R&D was successful. I think it's not as clear cut as "the Democrats" or "the Republicans" here-- especially since there would probably be a requirement that the shortfall be made up in some other way in order to balance the effects on revenue.
        ripjaygn 1y ago
        > I think it's not as clear cut as "the Democrats" or "the Republicans" here-- especially since there would probably be a requirement that the shortfall be made up in some other way in order to balance the effects on revenue For the 10th time in this thread, the repealing bill DID NOT need to be revenue neutral since it had Republican support, all it needed was 60 votes in the Senate. Reconciliation only applies if a yearly budget bill can get at least 51 votes but not 60. Sorry, I feel like I am taking crazy pills. I stated the same in another comment and was downvoted. I know HN is liberal biased but it's becoming unusable if you as much dare to criticize democrats.
    - apical_dendrite 1y ago
      There are special rules called reconciliation that allow one party to pass a bill with just a majority. It can be used only once a year (hence why everything was packed into the big beautiful bill) and there are very complex and technical rules around what it can be used for. So to answer your question, Republicans repealed it with zero Democratic votes because they included it in the once-a-year reconciliation bill. The bill that you are linking to would not have met this criteria.
      - ripjaygn 1y ago
        It had Republican support so it would've gotten the 60 votes in Senate without needing to get reconciliation. It didn't even get a vote because the Democrats stopped it from proceeding with their control of the Senate. Their policy is all about higher taxes on corporation and high income individuals so it tracks.
        dragon-hn 1y ago
        > It had Republican support so it would've gotten the 60 votes in Senate without needing to get reconciliation That is a bit of a jump. It wasn’t too long ago we had the Republicans vote against their own bill.
        ivewonyoung 1y ago
        > That is a bit of a jump. It wasn’t too long ago we had the Republicans vote against their own bill. There was no way for the Republicans to stop a bill from coming to vote. And there were multiple republican co-sponsors or even bills introduced by them to repeal the provisions. It didn't even get to a vote because the dems killed the efforts. They like higher corporate taxes so it tracks, they didn't care about the damage caused. Once the Repulicans were able to repeal it on their own, they immediately did it ASAP.
    - seangrogg 1y ago
      They actually did NOT repeal the portion relevant to software development being considered research - it was actually made permanent and is pretty trivial to find by searching for "software development" against the text of the bill. What did change was an additional section to how research is capitalized, with domestic research being able to deduct immediately while other (i.e. foreign) research is subject to the amortization rules.
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    In the Senate specifically you need 60 votes to break a filibuster. Filibustering, if we Americans remember from Civics/US Govt class in high school, happens when a senator exercises their right to speak for as long as they wish. Or at least it used to. There was a rule change a few decades ago to allow something called a “pocket filibuster” where you don’t have to keep speaking but you can block further motions on the matter. This requires at least 60 votes to break, so it’s effectively impossible to do anything in the Senate without that many votes now. There were some legendary filibusters back in the day. One famous example was when Strom Thurmond filibustered the Civil Rights act by speaking for 24 hours continuously. He was not able to block the bill by continuing to speak because there are limits to how long someone is able to stand and deliver, and originally if you stopped speaking you had to yield the floor and allow business to proceed.
    - ivewonyoung 1y ago
      Republicans supported the repeal, so 60 votes in the Senate were possible if the Dems wanted to repeal it. They didn't want to, coz they passed two reconciliation bills with zero republican votes and could've included the repeal in either one of them. Their policy is explicitly to tax corporations more. They didn't even let the clean repeal bills have a vote.
      - magicalist 1y ago
        > Republicans supported the repeal of the statute they wrote, voted for, and signed into law. Important note.
        ivewonyoung 1y ago
        It has been a common tactic to work around the filibuster and reconciliation rules, and to repeal them later. They didn't expect the democrats to oppose the repeal so hard and destroy tech jobs on their watch. They know no one will ever blame them for it, like you can see on HN. Democrats platform is all about higher taxes on corps so that tracks with their actions, jobs be damned.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  If you passed it in the first place, and counted on repealing it before it would have taken effect, and failed to do so, then I blame you for passing it in the first place.
  - ripjaygn 1y ago
    Why wouldn't you also blame the Democrats though? They had the chance to repeal it before it would have taken effect. Why do they get zero blame on here?
    - watwut 1y ago
      Because insistence on blaming both sides equally when one side clearly caused the issue enabled republicans for far too long. It gives advantage to bad actors.
      - ivewonyoung 1y ago
        Dems were elected to undo damage. They chose not to because their platform is higher taxes on corporations and high earners, and ended up creating the tech downturn on their watch. Republicans came in and immediately reversed it with zero Democrats support.
        watwut 1y ago
        Nice try. No. Republicans caused it. Full stop. Both sides are the same, Republicans destroy things and Democrats are not perfect in stopping and fixing them! "I am gonna support Republicans as they create problems and then blame Democrats" just makes you someone who intentionally creates problems.
        ivewonyoung 1y ago
        Dems had the chance to fix it and intentionally did not. Republicans did it immediately once they had the chance. If Dems weren't elected in 2020 we'd have plenty of tech jobs now. Their fault, full stop. If Kamala was elected, her platform was even higher corporate taxes.
- qqqwerty 1y ago
  Because how could the Democrats be certain that the Republicans wouldn't just use the same accounting trick again the next time that they wanted to pass tax cuts via reconciliation (which would effectively let them double count the "savings"). The Republicans have shown very little good faith in bipartisan efforts over the last decade and a half (as just one example, all the R's who voted against the IRA only to then campaign on the achievements of the bill later in the year). So while it is great that the Republicans fixed this one thing (that they themselves broke), asking why the Democrats didn't fix it kinda feels like you have been living under a rock for these last few years. If they break something, and they regret breaking something, let them expend the political capital to get it fixed. There is no free lunch in politics. If you spend your time on something like this, it means some other priority is getting ignored. And doubly so if your counter party has been operating on such bad faith as of late.
  - ivewonyoung 1y ago
    The democrats were elected to undo the damage caused in Trump's first term. And they let the damage start and happen on their watch, because.. according to you, for the sake of political benefit while ordinary people suffered and are still suffering from losing and not getting jobs. They will probably do the same again if they're elected, intentionally keep things broken for political gains. It's sad to see people support and encourage such behavior.

Why didn't the Biden admin "fix" the rule before it took effect in Jan 2022? They passed several bills, they could've have included the repeal. It took effect on the democrats watch, because of their inaction. Edit: Republican Marco Rubio introduced a clean bill to repeal the changes in 2023. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2823 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/282... The Democrat controlled Senate blocked it from coming to a vote. Why does HN always blame only Republicans for this change?

hn_acc1 1y ago
It's possible you need a supermajority or something to specifically "undo" laws passed by a previous session of congress - something Biden did not have.
- ivewonyoung 1y ago
  Then how did Republicans repeal it just recently with zero Dem votes? Repealing it had Republican support during the Biden term too, they even introduced a bill in2023 to repeal it which the Democrats killed. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2823 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/282... Democrats really wanted the changes to take place since their platform is all about higher taxes on companies and high earners.
  - rezonant 1y ago
    > which the Democrats killed Do you have a source for this claim? The congressional record says only that it died in the Finance Committee
    - ivewonyoung 1y ago
      Democrats controlled both the Finance Committee and the Senate. There was no way for Republicans to stop a bill from coming to vote. So it was necessarily stopped from moving ahead by Democrats despite Republican support. Another reason for the party in power blocking the vote would if the President opposed it, to prevent the scenario of Biden having to veto. Edit: Blocked from being able to post new comments by HN because I am getting heavily downvoted for posting inconvenient facts and arguments. Stay classy, HN.
      - rezonant 1y ago
        So that would be this Finance committee right? > The Senate Finance Committee roster for the 118th Congress includes 14 Democrats and 13 Republicans, with three new GOP members recently appointed. > https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/senate-finance-finalizes-roster-with-three-new-republicans/ https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/senate-finance-finalizes... Hardly an unbeatable majority for Democrats on this committee. Especially since research and development is one of the main reasons taxation on higher income classes is effective: The idea is you'll be taxed if you want to take it as profit, but if you advance the state of the art, innovate, or create new technology then you can deduct that. The high tax rates of the US post WWII up to Reagan worked so well because of this combination: It was incentivized for businesses to reinvest their profits into R&D, since they'd hopefully be able to scale their profits if the R&D was successful. I think it's not as clear cut as "the Democrats" or "the Republicans" here-- especially since there would probably be a requirement that the shortfall be made up in some other way in order to balance the effects on revenue.
        ripjaygn 1y ago
        > I think it's not as clear cut as "the Democrats" or "the Republicans" here-- especially since there would probably be a requirement that the shortfall be made up in some other way in order to balance the effects on revenue For the 10th time in this thread, the repealing bill DID NOT need to be revenue neutral since it had Republican support, all it needed was 60 votes in the Senate. Reconciliation only applies if a yearly budget bill can get at least 51 votes but not 60. Sorry, I feel like I am taking crazy pills. I stated the same in another comment and was downvoted. I know HN is liberal biased but it's becoming unusable if you as much dare to criticize democrats.
  - apical_dendrite 1y ago
    There are special rules called reconciliation that allow one party to pass a bill with just a majority. It can be used only once a year (hence why everything was packed into the big beautiful bill) and there are very complex and technical rules around what it can be used for. So to answer your question, Republicans repealed it with zero Democratic votes because they included it in the once-a-year reconciliation bill. The bill that you are linking to would not have met this criteria.
    - ripjaygn 1y ago
      It had Republican support so it would've gotten the 60 votes in Senate without needing to get reconciliation. It didn't even get a vote because the Democrats stopped it from proceeding with their control of the Senate. Their policy is all about higher taxes on corporation and high income individuals so it tracks.
      - dragon-hn 1y ago
        > It had Republican support so it would've gotten the 60 votes in Senate without needing to get reconciliation That is a bit of a jump. It wasn’t too long ago we had the Republicans vote against their own bill.
        ivewonyoung 1y ago
        > That is a bit of a jump. It wasn’t too long ago we had the Republicans vote against their own bill. There was no way for the Republicans to stop a bill from coming to vote. And there were multiple republican co-sponsors or even bills introduced by them to repeal the provisions. It didn't even get to a vote because the dems killed the efforts. They like higher corporate taxes so it tracks, they didn't care about the damage caused. Once the Repulicans were able to repeal it on their own, they immediately did it ASAP.
  - seangrogg 1y ago
    They actually did NOT repeal the portion relevant to software development being considered research - it was actually made permanent and is pretty trivial to find by searching for "software development" against the text of the bill. What did change was an additional section to how research is capitalized, with domestic research being able to deduct immediately while other (i.e. foreign) research is subject to the amortization rules.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  In the Senate specifically you need 60 votes to break a filibuster. Filibustering, if we Americans remember from Civics/US Govt class in high school, happens when a senator exercises their right to speak for as long as they wish. Or at least it used to. There was a rule change a few decades ago to allow something called a “pocket filibuster” where you don’t have to keep speaking but you can block further motions on the matter. This requires at least 60 votes to break, so it’s effectively impossible to do anything in the Senate without that many votes now. There were some legendary filibusters back in the day. One famous example was when Strom Thurmond filibustered the Civil Rights act by speaking for 24 hours continuously. He was not able to block the bill by continuing to speak because there are limits to how long someone is able to stand and deliver, and originally if you stopped speaking you had to yield the floor and allow business to proceed.
  - ivewonyoung 1y ago
    Republicans supported the repeal, so 60 votes in the Senate were possible if the Dems wanted to repeal it. They didn't want to, coz they passed two reconciliation bills with zero republican votes and could've included the repeal in either one of them. Their policy is explicitly to tax corporations more. They didn't even let the clean repeal bills have a vote.
    - magicalist 1y ago
      > Republicans supported the repeal of the statute they wrote, voted for, and signed into law. Important note.
      - ivewonyoung 1y ago
        It has been a common tactic to work around the filibuster and reconciliation rules, and to repeal them later. They didn't expect the democrats to oppose the repeal so hard and destroy tech jobs on their watch. They know no one will ever blame them for it, like you can see on HN. Democrats platform is all about higher taxes on corps so that tracks with their actions, jobs be damned.
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
If you passed it in the first place, and counted on repealing it before it would have taken effect, and failed to do so, then I blame you for passing it in the first place.
- ripjaygn 1y ago
  Why wouldn't you also blame the Democrats though? They had the chance to repeal it before it would have taken effect. Why do they get zero blame on here?
  - watwut 1y ago
    Because insistence on blaming both sides equally when one side clearly caused the issue enabled republicans for far too long. It gives advantage to bad actors.
    - ivewonyoung 1y ago
      Dems were elected to undo damage. They chose not to because their platform is higher taxes on corporations and high earners, and ended up creating the tech downturn on their watch. Republicans came in and immediately reversed it with zero Democrats support.
      - watwut 1y ago
        Nice try. No. Republicans caused it. Full stop. Both sides are the same, Republicans destroy things and Democrats are not perfect in stopping and fixing them! "I am gonna support Republicans as they create problems and then blame Democrats" just makes you someone who intentionally creates problems.
        ivewonyoung 1y ago
        Dems had the chance to fix it and intentionally did not. Republicans did it immediately once they had the chance. If Dems weren't elected in 2020 we'd have plenty of tech jobs now. Their fault, full stop. If Kamala was elected, her platform was even higher corporate taxes.
qqqwerty 1y ago
Because how could the Democrats be certain that the Republicans wouldn't just use the same accounting trick again the next time that they wanted to pass tax cuts via reconciliation (which would effectively let them double count the "savings"). The Republicans have shown very little good faith in bipartisan efforts over the last decade and a half (as just one example, all the R's who voted against the IRA only to then campaign on the achievements of the bill later in the year). So while it is great that the Republicans fixed this one thing (that they themselves broke), asking why the Democrats didn't fix it kinda feels like you have been living under a rock for these last few years. If they break something, and they regret breaking something, let them expend the political capital to get it fixed. There is no free lunch in politics. If you spend your time on something like this, it means some other priority is getting ignored. And doubly so if your counter party has been operating on such bad faith as of late.
- ivewonyoung 1y ago
  The democrats were elected to undo the damage caused in Trump's first term. And they let the damage start and happen on their watch, because.. according to you, for the sake of political benefit while ordinary people suffered and are still suffering from losing and not getting jobs. They will probably do the same again if they're elected, intentionally keep things broken for political gains. It's sad to see people support and encourage such behavior.