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But Thailand is far from alone in this move away from US weapons. Spain cancelled their bid for F-35s and Switzerland is looking into doing the same. Denmark re

by culi 1y ago

But Thailand is far from alone in this move away from US weapons. Spain cancelled their bid for F-35s and Switzerland is looking into doing the same. Denmark recently expressed regret over their purchase of F-35s. Portugal and Canada also both lost interest in American F-35s recently. It could just be tariff backlash—aircraft have historically been the US' largest export. But I do wonder if the recent tests of US military tech in Russia/Iran had any hand in this

deleted 1y ago
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garbthetill 1y ago
I still think US military tech is king, especially their fighter jets. eu countries cancelling or regrets is just geopolitics pandering fighter jets are unicorns on the same level as chips you cant just procure 3nm chips tomorrow because you want too. I'm not super knowledgeable on them, but its interesting to see how difficult maintaining and making new gens are for example gripens still rely on US engine, china relies on Russian engines etc and the US seems to be always ahead
- culi 1y ago
  Perhaps. But the US is less and less capable of producing them. Especially since the tariffs back-and-forth with China that lead to an exports control on rare earth minerals. Even before that, US manufacturers were consistently under-delivering and behind schedule on orders Not to mention there are key areas that the US is widely considered to be behind on (e.g. hypersonic glide vehicles and drones) compared to the "Second World" powers. And there's been lots of talk—even from within the US—that drones have become more important to modern warfare than manned jets.
- goyagoji 1y ago
  When you procure a 3nm chip you expect to keep it working as well as when you bought it, even if you block the management engine for privacy. When you buy a fighter plane you should expect to not be able to fly for the full duration of a single conflict the manufacturing country disagrees about.
  - fooker 1y ago
    > When you procure a 3nm chip you expect to keep it working as well as when you bought it This seems like it’s being revisited. https://www.theverge.com/news/719697/nvidia-ai-gpu-chips-denies-backdoors-kill-switches-spyware https://www.theverge.com/news/719697/nvidia-ai-gpu-chips-den...
  - Terr_ 1y ago
    Right: A powerful jet that can not be flown for lack of replacement-parts is worse than a mediocre jet that actually operates. We've made great strides in reliability over the years, but planes are anything but solid-state like integrated CPUs are.
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      Forget parts. Mission's can't be flown. Look up Mission Data Files and F35 Partner Support Complexes.
      - netsharc 1y ago
        Ukranian hackers know how to hack John Deere tractors.. hah, downloading files from a Ukranian web forum to install on your F-35 would be very dystopian cyberpunk.
      - dralley 1y ago
        Lack of MDFs does not mean that you can't fly missions. It's an intelligence product that assists with mission planning. That's like saying your car is completely unusable if the builtin maps are a few years out of date.
- alexnewman 1y ago
  People think jets are things that should work even if they aren't supported by the manufacturer. Javelin and patriot don't work that way? How exactly does someone beside the us manage the hydrazine supplychain without usa logistics?
- tim333 1y ago
  US military tech is best but European stuff is pretty functional.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    > US military tech is best Do we know this to be true still? There's a lot of new modern equipment that other countries have that have not gone head-to-head against to really know that any more.
    - cutemonster 1y ago
      I'd say it's not true, not in all aspects. Ukraine for example is better at drone production and defence
  - wcfields 1y ago
    “Best” but you’re going to spend millions per missile system to have “the best”. Israel quickly found out when trying to shoot down “cheap” $30k Iranian drones.
- ta20240528 1y ago
  F-35s parked on the runway because the tangerine clown told LM to withhold this week's software update is a lot less useful than a squadron of 4th gen fighters in the air chock a block full of state-of-the-art missiles.
c420 1y ago
It seems the recent volatility from this American administration is being overlooked. They’ve turned their back on allies, resorted to bullying, and even issued outright threats, while walking away from commitments. Buyers may be weighing the risk that when they need service for their purchase, they could be strong-armed with threats of withheld maintenance — or worse, face a remote kill switch being activated.
- bboygravity 1y ago
  Turned their back on allies? That's a funny thing to say on the very day that Trump might've brokered a peacedeal that instantly would end the war. Seems obviously more valuable to me than selling weapons to Ukraine for many years to "help its ally"?
  - thebigman433 1y ago
    There is nothing indicating a ceasefire, and Zelensky isnt even there. That is not helping an ally. Ukraine also is not our only ally - the current administration constantly makes fun of our other ones
  - onlypassingthru 1y ago
    That's wildly optimistic that Trump would convince Putin to admit his mistake and fully retreat from all of occupied Ukraine, but I admire the sentiment.
  - netsharc 1y ago
    What flavor Koolaid are you drinking there, bud? God, a warmonger is currently dealing with someone who cosplays as a strongman/world-leader, and poorly. I can't imagine the stupidity to imagine he's going to make a good deal. But then again, that Koolaid is going to make you believe that it will be a good deal, and if Zelensky or the EU don't want it, they're ungrateful losers...
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > That's a funny thing to say on the very day that Trump might've brokered a peacedeal that instantly would end the war. With whom is he meeting on each side of the conflict such that he might have brokered a peace deal?
blibble 1y ago
don't forget the Swiss too who are livid after orangeman applied 39% tariffs because he doesn't understand the triangle trade of gold
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
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ericmay 1y ago
At the end of the day it just doesn’t matter whether these countries buy F-35s or not except as additional profit streams for US defense companies and in some ways it’s good that they are looking to buy EU jets instead since the EU needs to invest more in its “domestic” defense industry. Do we really think Spain and Portugal are going to fight alongside US forces in Europe or elsewhere? I don’t. Isn’t Switzerland a neutral country? This isn’t a slight against any of these countries but let’s be realistic. Canada is going to buy still* * https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-to-buy-all-88-f-35-fighters-that-s-what-defense-officials-want/ar-AA1K6LSN https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-to-buy-all-88-f-...
- mthoms 1y ago
  1) Over a hundred Spanish soldiers died defending America as part of the Afghanistan war. How many Americans have died defending Spain in a hot war since the founding of NATO? 2) The linked article doesn't say what you claim it says. The Cdn. military is advising the government to go ahead with the entire F-35 purchase. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilian government will agree. We just don't know yet.
  - ericmay 1y ago
    1) Over a hundred Spanish soldiers died defending America as part of the Afghanistan war. How many Americans have died defending Spain in a hot war since the founding of NATO? How many times has Spain been attacked? Not a great argument. And just to make sure the record is very clear I am very grateful for our allies and their contributions, particularly to the war in Afghanistan, but that’s Afghanistan, it’s not Russia or China. And Spain in particular is unwilling to increase defense spending - why is that? 2) The linked article doesn't say what you claim it says. The Cdn. military is advising the government to go ahead with the entire F-35 purchase. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilian government will agree. We just don't know yet. They’ll buy. Also the OP said “Portugal and Canada also both lost interest in American F-35s recently.” Did they lose interest? Doesn’t appear to be the case for Canada.
    - 1y ago
freeopinion 1y ago
Buying US weapons puts you in a position of needing US backing for decades. You need replacement parts, maintenance training, and a million other dependencies. Naturally, you'd need similar from any supplier. So an important part of your calculus has to be, "Will these guys be around to support me in 25-40 years?" That has never really been a question for the US in the last 75 years. Now it is. I don't think anybody fears that the US will cease to be a country. Or even that it will cease to be an important country. The question is whether they will be your reliable ally in 25-40 years, or even in four years. Or will they start some pattern of being your friend for a couple years, then cutting you off for a few years, then trying to re-friend you? That is not a relationship on which anybody wants to build their national security support.
- ben_w 1y ago
  > "Will these guys be around to support me in 25-40 years?" That has never really been a question for the US in the last 75 years. From the POV of the time? Sure, we can see with the benefit of hindsight that even 40 years was true up until at least 1985, but did people plan that far ahead at the time? 25 years, sure, I think that was true for most of it, with only a handful of exceptions like France and the UK being upset about what happened in response to their actions in the Suez Crisis. IMO correct call by USA there, and I say that as a British citizen by birth, but still means "can we rely on them?" resolves "no", and this loss of de facto independence in what they could do explains much of British foreign policy since then.

by culi 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

garbthetill 1y ago

I still think US military tech is king, especially their fighter jets. eu countries cancelling or regrets is just geopolitics pandering fighter jets are unicorns on the same level as chips you cant just procure 3nm chips tomorrow because you want too. I'm not super knowledgeable on them, but its interesting to see how difficult maintaining and making new gens are for example gripens still rely on US engine, china relies on Russian engines etc and the US seems to be always ahead

culi 1y ago
Perhaps. But the US is less and less capable of producing them. Especially since the tariffs back-and-forth with China that lead to an exports control on rare earth minerals. Even before that, US manufacturers were consistently under-delivering and behind schedule on orders Not to mention there are key areas that the US is widely considered to be behind on (e.g. hypersonic glide vehicles and drones) compared to the "Second World" powers. And there's been lots of talk—even from within the US—that drones have become more important to modern warfare than manned jets.
goyagoji 1y ago
When you procure a 3nm chip you expect to keep it working as well as when you bought it, even if you block the management engine for privacy. When you buy a fighter plane you should expect to not be able to fly for the full duration of a single conflict the manufacturing country disagrees about.
- fooker 1y ago
  > When you procure a 3nm chip you expect to keep it working as well as when you bought it This seems like it’s being revisited. https://www.theverge.com/news/719697/nvidia-ai-gpu-chips-denies-backdoors-kill-switches-spyware https://www.theverge.com/news/719697/nvidia-ai-gpu-chips-den...
- Terr_ 1y ago
  Right: A powerful jet that can not be flown for lack of replacement-parts is worse than a mediocre jet that actually operates. We've made great strides in reliability over the years, but planes are anything but solid-state like integrated CPUs are.
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    Forget parts. Mission's can't be flown. Look up Mission Data Files and F35 Partner Support Complexes.
    - netsharc 1y ago
      Ukranian hackers know how to hack John Deere tractors.. hah, downloading files from a Ukranian web forum to install on your F-35 would be very dystopian cyberpunk.
    - dralley 1y ago
      Lack of MDFs does not mean that you can't fly missions. It's an intelligence product that assists with mission planning. That's like saying your car is completely unusable if the builtin maps are a few years out of date.
alexnewman 1y ago
People think jets are things that should work even if they aren't supported by the manufacturer. Javelin and patriot don't work that way? How exactly does someone beside the us manage the hydrazine supplychain without usa logistics?
tim333 1y ago
US military tech is best but European stuff is pretty functional.
- dylan604 1y ago
  > US military tech is best Do we know this to be true still? There's a lot of new modern equipment that other countries have that have not gone head-to-head against to really know that any more.
  - cutemonster 1y ago
    I'd say it's not true, not in all aspects. Ukraine for example is better at drone production and defence
- wcfields 1y ago
  “Best” but you’re going to spend millions per missile system to have “the best”. Israel quickly found out when trying to shoot down “cheap” $30k Iranian drones.
ta20240528 1y ago
F-35s parked on the runway because the tangerine clown told LM to withhold this week's software update is a lot less useful than a squadron of 4th gen fighters in the air chock a block full of state-of-the-art missiles.

c420 1y ago

It seems the recent volatility from this American administration is being overlooked. They’ve turned their back on allies, resorted to bullying, and even issued outright threats, while walking away from commitments. Buyers may be weighing the risk that when they need service for their purchase, they could be strong-armed with threats of withheld maintenance — or worse, face a remote kill switch being activated.

bboygravity 1y ago
Turned their back on allies? That's a funny thing to say on the very day that Trump might've brokered a peacedeal that instantly would end the war. Seems obviously more valuable to me than selling weapons to Ukraine for many years to "help its ally"?
- thebigman433 1y ago
  There is nothing indicating a ceasefire, and Zelensky isnt even there. That is not helping an ally. Ukraine also is not our only ally - the current administration constantly makes fun of our other ones
- onlypassingthru 1y ago
  That's wildly optimistic that Trump would convince Putin to admit his mistake and fully retreat from all of occupied Ukraine, but I admire the sentiment.
- netsharc 1y ago
  What flavor Koolaid are you drinking there, bud? God, a warmonger is currently dealing with someone who cosplays as a strongman/world-leader, and poorly. I can't imagine the stupidity to imagine he's going to make a good deal. But then again, that Koolaid is going to make you believe that it will be a good deal, and if Zelensky or the EU don't want it, they're ungrateful losers...
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > That's a funny thing to say on the very day that Trump might've brokered a peacedeal that instantly would end the war. With whom is he meeting on each side of the conflict such that he might have brokered a peace deal?

blibble 1y ago

don't forget the Swiss too who are livid after orangeman applied 39% tariffs because he doesn't understand the triangle trade of gold

oldpersonintx2 1y ago

[dead]

ericmay 1y ago

At the end of the day it just doesn’t matter whether these countries buy F-35s or not except as additional profit streams for US defense companies and in some ways it’s good that they are looking to buy EU jets instead since the EU needs to invest more in its “domestic” defense industry. Do we really think Spain and Portugal are going to fight alongside US forces in Europe or elsewhere? I don’t. Isn’t Switzerland a neutral country? This isn’t a slight against any of these countries but let’s be realistic. Canada is going to buy still* * https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-to-buy-all-88-f-35-fighters-that-s-what-defense-officials-want/ar-AA1K6LSN https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-to-buy-all-88-f-...

mthoms 1y ago
1) Over a hundred Spanish soldiers died defending America as part of the Afghanistan war. How many Americans have died defending Spain in a hot war since the founding of NATO? 2) The linked article doesn't say what you claim it says. The Cdn. military is advising the government to go ahead with the entire F-35 purchase. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilian government will agree. We just don't know yet.
- ericmay 1y ago
  1) Over a hundred Spanish soldiers died defending America as part of the Afghanistan war. How many Americans have died defending Spain in a hot war since the founding of NATO? How many times has Spain been attacked? Not a great argument. And just to make sure the record is very clear I am very grateful for our allies and their contributions, particularly to the war in Afghanistan, but that’s Afghanistan, it’s not Russia or China. And Spain in particular is unwilling to increase defense spending - why is that? 2) The linked article doesn't say what you claim it says. The Cdn. military is advising the government to go ahead with the entire F-35 purchase. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilian government will agree. We just don't know yet. They’ll buy. Also the OP said “Portugal and Canada also both lost interest in American F-35s recently.” Did they lose interest? Doesn’t appear to be the case for Canada.
  - 1y ago

freeopinion 1y ago

Buying US weapons puts you in a position of needing US backing for decades. You need replacement parts, maintenance training, and a million other dependencies. Naturally, you'd need similar from any supplier. So an important part of your calculus has to be, "Will these guys be around to support me in 25-40 years?" That has never really been a question for the US in the last 75 years. Now it is. I don't think anybody fears that the US will cease to be a country. Or even that it will cease to be an important country. The question is whether they will be your reliable ally in 25-40 years, or even in four years. Or will they start some pattern of being your friend for a couple years, then cutting you off for a few years, then trying to re-friend you? That is not a relationship on which anybody wants to build their national security support.

ben_w 1y ago
> "Will these guys be around to support me in 25-40 years?" That has never really been a question for the US in the last 75 years. From the POV of the time? Sure, we can see with the benefit of hindsight that even 40 years was true up until at least 1985, but did people plan that far ahead at the time? 25 years, sure, I think that was true for most of it, with only a handful of exceptions like France and the UK being upset about what happened in response to their actions in the Suez Crisis. IMO correct call by USA there, and I say that as a British citizen by birth, but still means "can we rely on them?" resolves "no", and this loss of de facto independence in what they could do explains much of British foreign policy since then.