4 ms·

> Can these be up and running faster and cheaper than starting from scratch? Absolutely. I think it’s a tremendous idea. Not only is this providing a false bin

> Can these be up and running faster and cheaper than starting from scratch? Absolutely. I think it’s a tremendous idea. Not only is this providing a false binary, it’s also a pretty great example of the sunk cost fallacy. The article itself describes that the projects were abandoned due to cost reasons, why would it cost any less now.

SoftTalker 1y ago
And how viable is it to complete a reactor where the half-finished structure has been sitting, open to the weather, for decades. How much of what is there is repairable/useable?
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  “Nothing is impossible, What you want is simply expensive.” - The Prestige
tmaly 1y ago
Maybe not less, but given the rise in energy costs, it might make more sense.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  Ask the people near Vogtle how that projected impacted their electricity rates. Depending on how SC prices electricity, it might not be able to compete with wind/solar/batteries.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    Hmm...electricity prices in Georgia are less than half of what they are in wind/solar/batteries Mecca California. That is after the (minute) rate rise to pay for Vogtles.
    - _aavaa_ 1y ago
      I won’t call 1000$ a person before the reactor was even built and then a cumulative >20% increase in electricity price “minute”. More importantly for California it is also a wildfire Mecca, which is what is driving a large amount of those cost increases. You can see if if you grab electricity prices and plot them versus renewable penetration and notice the lack of a trend: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-states-electricity-sources-prices https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-states-electric...
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        LOL. The rate increase in Georgia was around 1¢ per kWh, from 14¢ to 15¢. The electricity price in California is 32¢ per kWh, due primarily to generating and transmission costs, not due to wildfires. Yes, wildfires contribute, but only around 10%. So without any of those, you'd still have 29¢. For some reason you find the 1¢ increase horrible, but see no problem in the 17¢ difference. Electricity prices correlate with intermittent renewables buildout worldwide. https://stopthesethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/cost-electricity-renewables-countries.jpg https://stopthesethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/cost-...
        _aavaa_ 1y ago
        A chart that has been disproved dozens of time from a site that peddles all the regular anti-renewable talking points. The biggest issue with comparing electricity rates across countries is that they have wildly different taxes included in the prices. So direct comparison of the prices is an apples-to-oranges comparison. To say nothing of the fact that prices in many countries are often set by the marginal generator, which in the case of say Germany on that graph is oil, gas, or coal. Most of which is imported from other countries as fluctuates wildly with fuel costs (e.g. price shocks after Russian’s invasion of Ukraine).
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        1y ago
mpweiher 1y ago
Oh, the Vogtles took a lot of the FOAK (First of a Kind) bullets. China also builds these Westinghouse AP-1000s. Their FOAK builds took 9+ years. They are now down to 5 years. Time = money. Also conditions have changed. With the rise of intermittent renewables, the value of reliable power, which was mostly a given in the past, has risen, particularly for data centers. And of course we are now somewhat more serious about CO₂ emissions, even if Trump is trying to walk that back.

SoftTalker 1y ago

And how viable is it to complete a reactor where the half-finished structure has been sitting, open to the weather, for decades. How much of what is there is repairable/useable?

_aavaa_ 1y ago
“Nothing is impossible, What you want is simply expensive.” - The Prestige

tmaly 1y ago

Maybe not less, but given the rise in energy costs, it might make more sense.

_aavaa_ 1y ago
Ask the people near Vogtle how that projected impacted their electricity rates. Depending on how SC prices electricity, it might not be able to compete with wind/solar/batteries.
- mpweiher 1y ago
  Hmm...electricity prices in Georgia are less than half of what they are in wind/solar/batteries Mecca California. That is after the (minute) rate rise to pay for Vogtles.
  - _aavaa_ 1y ago
    I won’t call 1000$ a person before the reactor was even built and then a cumulative >20% increase in electricity price “minute”. More importantly for California it is also a wildfire Mecca, which is what is driving a large amount of those cost increases. You can see if if you grab electricity prices and plot them versus renewable penetration and notice the lack of a trend: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-states-electricity-sources-prices https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-states-electric...
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      LOL. The rate increase in Georgia was around 1¢ per kWh, from 14¢ to 15¢. The electricity price in California is 32¢ per kWh, due primarily to generating and transmission costs, not due to wildfires. Yes, wildfires contribute, but only around 10%. So without any of those, you'd still have 29¢. For some reason you find the 1¢ increase horrible, but see no problem in the 17¢ difference. Electricity prices correlate with intermittent renewables buildout worldwide. https://stopthesethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/cost-electricity-renewables-countries.jpg https://stopthesethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/cost-...
      - _aavaa_ 1y ago
        A chart that has been disproved dozens of time from a site that peddles all the regular anti-renewable talking points. The biggest issue with comparing electricity rates across countries is that they have wildly different taxes included in the prices. So direct comparison of the prices is an apples-to-oranges comparison. To say nothing of the fact that prices in many countries are often set by the marginal generator, which in the case of say Germany on that graph is oil, gas, or coal. Most of which is imported from other countries as fluctuates wildly with fuel costs (e.g. price shocks after Russian’s invasion of Ukraine).
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        1y ago

mpweiher 1y ago

Oh, the Vogtles took a lot of the FOAK (First of a Kind) bullets. China also builds these Westinghouse AP-1000s. Their FOAK builds took 9+ years. They are now down to 5 years. Time = money. Also conditions have changed. With the rise of intermittent renewables, the value of reliable power, which was mostly a given in the past, has risen, particularly for data centers. And of course we are now somewhat more serious about CO₂ emissions, even if Trump is trying to walk that back.