4 ms·

Is Hong Kong a "Libertarian Utopia"? In some ways, yes, but it probably isn't what people think of when they see that phrase. But that's the idea here-- to i

by nirvana 14y ago

Is Hong Kong a "Libertarian Utopia"? In some ways, yes, but it probably isn't what people think of when they see that phrase. But that's the idea here-- to import the models that work elsewhere into a new location and let it grow. I hope they are successful. If their offering ends up being competitive with the alternatives, we'll locate our startup there (I already have talked it over with my cofounders.) We're currently engaging in jurisdictional arbitrage to find the best home for us, as we can do what we do from anywhere that has the internet. So, we're choosing from a list of countries based on what kind of environment they will provide us. The problem so far hasn't been finding a country that is more hospitable than the USA, but in selecting from the dozen or so who are more hospitable, and trying to figure out which one is the most hospitable. Imagine that-- we're struggling with too many choices for good places to locate our business, all of whom offer at least one key benefit over the USA, and most of whom offer many such. Many people think the USA is hospitable to business, and assume that there's something shady about what we're doing that we don't just go to the bay area and be done with it. Well, here's our "Crime" in the eyes of the USA: one of our founders is from Britain while the others are from the USA. This means, while we can spend up to 6 months in Britain, and 3 months in the USA, neither country will let all three of us live there to do our startup without a great deal of hassle. Contrast that with Chile which gave us a year of residency without any more hassle than showing up at a consulate with an application, some passport photos and a fee. We can renew that for another year, and after that first renewal, we could renew it for a final time-- and have permanent residency in Chile! And chile is a perfectly fine place to run a business. It is a first world country, with a much more pro-business government than the USA. We'd be comfortable staying here and running our business for the next several decades. So, I hope that Patri and the competitors to his company are all very successful -- lets make honduras one of the competitors. Already we've seen Panama grow dramatically as the best and the brightest fled Venezuela after Chavez took over.... there's still huge opportunity for jurisdictions that offer good terms. Mobility is only going up over time!

nodemaker 14y ago
Yeah I agree with this. US is not very friendly to immigrant entrepreneurs at all. Where can I read some more about getting Permanent Residency in Chile?
- nirvana 14y ago
  Alas, my source for info is a private wiki so I can't link directly. I did read up on the application in the recent past, and the hardest part was the requirement to get letters from Chileans saying you've made a contribution to the country. As part of Startup Chile we've made contacts within the government so this likely wouldn't be too difficult for us. (and if you're doing an early stage startup, Startup Chile is one way to get a good immersion into Chile.) But here's some links: http://www.spencerglobal.com/chile-immigration-law/32/120-chile-visa-requirements.html http://www.spencerglobal.com/chile-immigration-law/32/120-ch... http://www.allchile.net/chilewiki/index.php?title=Immigration%2C_Visas%2C_and_Customs_in_Chile http://www.allchile.net/chilewiki/index.php?title=Immigratio... Here's a good forum to ask questions about Chile: http://www.allchile.net/chileforum/ http://www.allchile.net/chileforum/
da02 14y ago
What other countries in your research have come close to Chile? Any in Europe or SEA?
greghinch 14y ago
I find this very interesting and welcome news. How do you find the talent pool though as you expand your business? Are you hiring locals, or remote workers (primarily a question relating to developers but interested in the process of filling other positions as well)?
- nirvana 14y ago
  Our time in South America has been very enlightening. For instance, Chile has a pretty sizable middle class, and thus software developers and designers and other qualified people we could hire. I've heard from others that this is also the case in many of the other south american countries. But I don't think we need to find people local. I believe in telecommuting, and I think that talented people want to live in nice places. For instance, I know one american company that has several employees in Thailand and asia, simply because that's where the employees want to live. I think letting people telecommute will be a competitive advantage for us in hiring. The office is such a mind numbing place to work, they seem designed to kill productivity. (we don't have an office, the founders share an apartment, having a larger apartment is still cheaper than having a separate office.) But we're also working on businesses with a great degree of leverage. I think many businesses see themselves as mostly selling the product of their employees productivity, and thus more employees=more business. We're selling the product of ingenuity... and so a lot of places where other people would hire employees, we will outsource. For instance, when we can't do support in house, we'll have an employee or two who is in charge of customer service, but the primary front line customer service people would be employees of a customer-service-as-a-service provider.
spitfire 14y ago
Could you write more about the countries you're looking at, and their benefits and downsides? I'm looking at a similar approach to you, and dubai looks good to me. (warm, tax free, cheaper than where I am now).
- nirvana 14y ago
  I'm advocating a mindset, I think, more than the claim that specific countries are right for people. I think the first step for most people is getting it into their heads that the country they were born in is not the greatest place in the world, and being open to the possibility that other countries are better. But which country is better depends very highly on your preferences... for instance, Dubai and Singapore are good climates for business, but a gay person might not feel comfortable in either. (and we've considered both, fwiw.) It also depends on your nationality- a treaty between the USA and the Netherlands gives us an opportunity to get residency in the netherlands much easier than it would for others. So, any list I might give is going to be a bit too personal to our specific interests. But people should consider chile. Panama has a new program which gives residency for anybody from certain countries (and there's a long list) who starts a business in Panama. (Panama City is the new miami- the cultural and financial hub of the region, or so I've been told.) Costa Rica has a lot to recommend it, such as a culture very supportive of americans, and no national military (if that's your thing). Nicaragua is poor, and thus your costs would be really low there, akin to thailand or cambodia. Thailand is really nice, but you can't easily get residency so you're border hopping to keep your visa up to date. Cambodia, though, I hear has a new residency program, but I don't know the details. Paraguay and Uruguay are also ones to consider, as relatively inexpensive and relatively pro-business countries. For some people estonia might be the right choice and for others it might be shanghai, even though china has aspects that others wouldn't like. I've found a great deal of useful information in Sovereign Man: Confidential, and his free email list you can join at http://www.sovereignman.com http://www.sovereignman.com
  - spitfire 14y ago
    > I'm advocating a mindset This is a good point. Living on $500/mo in a lush tropical paradise sounds fantastic. Until you realize there are no like minded people around - you'll have no one to bounce ideas off of. This is one thing that interests me about dubai over generic-cheap-tropical-place, it's very much a driven environment. Thailand is great for a vacation, or retirement. But I wouldn't want to hire technical talent there. It very much a pick and choose your tradeoffs sort of situation. Can you find low living costs with a good, cosmopolitan urban core nearby? If so I think you've found shangri-la. I suspect Buenos Aires might be on that list.
recuter 14y ago
Interesting. > The problem so far hasn't been finding a country that is more hospitable than the USA, but in selecting from the dozen or so who are more hospitable, and trying to figure out which one is the most hospitable. Can you list the dozen you are considering if not the complete thought process? Are you considering perhaps places in Asia like Thailand and Singapore?
- nirvana 14y ago
  My list will be different than yours. I do recommend Chile. Thailand and Singapore I haven't visited, but both have their appeal. Thailand's limit is that you can't easily get residency (as I understand it) and so you have to do the border hop every 90 days. Singapore is efficient and by the book, which means if their residency programs work for you, then they could be really good. The country is a bit rigid, so might want to visit to make sure its right for you.
  - Radim 14y ago
    I'm assuming you're talking about tourist visas, with that "90 days border hops" (single entry). Working in Thailand on such tourist visa is illegal. Getting a business visa (and thus work permit) is not easy at all. Foreigners are not allowed to hold majority in a Thai company (just as they are not allowed to own land in Thailand). Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and its laws reflect that. Working around the visa system illegally is not difficult, and many people do that (incl. IT freelancers). But contrary to the popular image of a "care-free tropical paradise", Thailand is one of the more difficult choices to run business in/from.
warmfuzzykitten 14y ago
In what ways is Chile much more friendly to business? Aside from the free $20K? :)
meric 14y ago
As someone who grew up in Hong Kong, please don't associate Hong Kong in 2012 with the phrase "Libertarian Utopia" at all. The government has been trying to pass this bill: http://www.ipd.gov.hk/eng/intellectual_property/copyright/copyright_2011_bill.htm http://www.ipd.gov.hk/eng/intellectual_property/copyright/co... It means that satire of existing works are now illegal if done without the express permission of original copyright owner. And even more worryingly, the law allows the government to take action on the copyright owner's behalf, if the government can obtain permission from the owner. If you are a licensed television station and the government comes to you secretly threatening allow more television licenses, of course you will give the government permission. Also, read about government's attempt to introduce "education" about the Chinese Communist Party in primary school. The textbook contains only praises of China's authoritarian regime with barely a mention of atrocities in the 50's, 60's and 70's. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19472918 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19472918 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/04/world/asia/hong-kong-national-education-protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/04/world/asia/hong-kong-natio... "The contents of the booklet inflamed longstanding fears of Beijing's encroachment into Hong Kong's affairs and freedoms by stating that China's ruling party is "progressive, selfless and united," and ignoring major events such as the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre."
- aristus 14y ago
  Popular ideas about faraway places lag reality by a half-generation or more. I've talked with people who still think Medellin and Beruit are hellholes, when in fact they are now the safest places in their regions.

by nirvana 14y ago

nodemaker 14y ago

Yeah I agree with this. US is not very friendly to immigrant entrepreneurs at all. Where can I read some more about getting Permanent Residency in Chile?

nirvana 14y ago
Alas, my source for info is a private wiki so I can't link directly. I did read up on the application in the recent past, and the hardest part was the requirement to get letters from Chileans saying you've made a contribution to the country. As part of Startup Chile we've made contacts within the government so this likely wouldn't be too difficult for us. (and if you're doing an early stage startup, Startup Chile is one way to get a good immersion into Chile.) But here's some links: http://www.spencerglobal.com/chile-immigration-law/32/120-chile-visa-requirements.html http://www.spencerglobal.com/chile-immigration-law/32/120-ch... http://www.allchile.net/chilewiki/index.php?title=Immigration%2C_Visas%2C_and_Customs_in_Chile http://www.allchile.net/chilewiki/index.php?title=Immigratio... Here's a good forum to ask questions about Chile: http://www.allchile.net/chileforum/ http://www.allchile.net/chileforum/

da02 14y ago

What other countries in your research have come close to Chile? Any in Europe or SEA?

greghinch 14y ago

I find this very interesting and welcome news. How do you find the talent pool though as you expand your business? Are you hiring locals, or remote workers (primarily a question relating to developers but interested in the process of filling other positions as well)?

nirvana 14y ago
Our time in South America has been very enlightening. For instance, Chile has a pretty sizable middle class, and thus software developers and designers and other qualified people we could hire. I've heard from others that this is also the case in many of the other south american countries. But I don't think we need to find people local. I believe in telecommuting, and I think that talented people want to live in nice places. For instance, I know one american company that has several employees in Thailand and asia, simply because that's where the employees want to live. I think letting people telecommute will be a competitive advantage for us in hiring. The office is such a mind numbing place to work, they seem designed to kill productivity. (we don't have an office, the founders share an apartment, having a larger apartment is still cheaper than having a separate office.) But we're also working on businesses with a great degree of leverage. I think many businesses see themselves as mostly selling the product of their employees productivity, and thus more employees=more business. We're selling the product of ingenuity... and so a lot of places where other people would hire employees, we will outsource. For instance, when we can't do support in house, we'll have an employee or two who is in charge of customer service, but the primary front line customer service people would be employees of a customer-service-as-a-service provider.

spitfire 14y ago

Could you write more about the countries you're looking at, and their benefits and downsides? I'm looking at a similar approach to you, and dubai looks good to me. (warm, tax free, cheaper than where I am now).

nirvana 14y ago
I'm advocating a mindset, I think, more than the claim that specific countries are right for people. I think the first step for most people is getting it into their heads that the country they were born in is not the greatest place in the world, and being open to the possibility that other countries are better. But which country is better depends very highly on your preferences... for instance, Dubai and Singapore are good climates for business, but a gay person might not feel comfortable in either. (and we've considered both, fwiw.) It also depends on your nationality- a treaty between the USA and the Netherlands gives us an opportunity to get residency in the netherlands much easier than it would for others. So, any list I might give is going to be a bit too personal to our specific interests. But people should consider chile. Panama has a new program which gives residency for anybody from certain countries (and there's a long list) who starts a business in Panama. (Panama City is the new miami- the cultural and financial hub of the region, or so I've been told.) Costa Rica has a lot to recommend it, such as a culture very supportive of americans, and no national military (if that's your thing). Nicaragua is poor, and thus your costs would be really low there, akin to thailand or cambodia. Thailand is really nice, but you can't easily get residency so you're border hopping to keep your visa up to date. Cambodia, though, I hear has a new residency program, but I don't know the details. Paraguay and Uruguay are also ones to consider, as relatively inexpensive and relatively pro-business countries. For some people estonia might be the right choice and for others it might be shanghai, even though china has aspects that others wouldn't like. I've found a great deal of useful information in Sovereign Man: Confidential, and his free email list you can join at http://www.sovereignman.com http://www.sovereignman.com
- spitfire 14y ago
  > I'm advocating a mindset This is a good point. Living on $500/mo in a lush tropical paradise sounds fantastic. Until you realize there are no like minded people around - you'll have no one to bounce ideas off of. This is one thing that interests me about dubai over generic-cheap-tropical-place, it's very much a driven environment. Thailand is great for a vacation, or retirement. But I wouldn't want to hire technical talent there. It very much a pick and choose your tradeoffs sort of situation. Can you find low living costs with a good, cosmopolitan urban core nearby? If so I think you've found shangri-la. I suspect Buenos Aires might be on that list.

recuter 14y ago

Interesting. > The problem so far hasn't been finding a country that is more hospitable than the USA, but in selecting from the dozen or so who are more hospitable, and trying to figure out which one is the most hospitable. Can you list the dozen you are considering if not the complete thought process? Are you considering perhaps places in Asia like Thailand and Singapore?

nirvana 14y ago
My list will be different than yours. I do recommend Chile. Thailand and Singapore I haven't visited, but both have their appeal. Thailand's limit is that you can't easily get residency (as I understand it) and so you have to do the border hop every 90 days. Singapore is efficient and by the book, which means if their residency programs work for you, then they could be really good. The country is a bit rigid, so might want to visit to make sure its right for you.
- Radim 14y ago
  I'm assuming you're talking about tourist visas, with that "90 days border hops" (single entry). Working in Thailand on such tourist visa is illegal. Getting a business visa (and thus work permit) is not easy at all. Foreigners are not allowed to hold majority in a Thai company (just as they are not allowed to own land in Thailand). Thailand is a very xenophobic country, and its laws reflect that. Working around the visa system illegally is not difficult, and many people do that (incl. IT freelancers). But contrary to the popular image of a "care-free tropical paradise", Thailand is one of the more difficult choices to run business in/from.

warmfuzzykitten 14y ago

In what ways is Chile much more friendly to business? Aside from the free $20K? :)

meric 14y ago

As someone who grew up in Hong Kong, please don't associate Hong Kong in 2012 with the phrase "Libertarian Utopia" at all. The government has been trying to pass this bill: http://www.ipd.gov.hk/eng/intellectual_property/copyright/copyright_2011_bill.htm http://www.ipd.gov.hk/eng/intellectual_property/copyright/co... It means that satire of existing works are now illegal if done without the express permission of original copyright owner. And even more worryingly, the law allows the government to take action on the copyright owner's behalf, if the government can obtain permission from the owner. If you are a licensed television station and the government comes to you secretly threatening allow more television licenses, of course you will give the government permission. Also, read about government's attempt to introduce "education" about the Chinese Communist Party in primary school. The textbook contains only praises of China's authoritarian regime with barely a mention of atrocities in the 50's, 60's and 70's. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19472918 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19472918 http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/04/world/asia/hong-kong-national-education-protests/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/04/world/asia/hong-kong-natio... "The contents of the booklet inflamed longstanding fears of Beijing's encroachment into Hong Kong's affairs and freedoms by stating that China's ruling party is "progressive, selfless and united," and ignoring major events such as the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre."

aristus 14y ago
Popular ideas about faraway places lag reality by a half-generation or more. I've talked with people who still think Medellin and Beruit are hellholes, when in fact they are now the safest places in their regions.