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Oh, I entirely agree. It just seems absolutely nuts that the US government (or rather the state governments, because ultimately they'd be dealing with it) canno

Oh, I entirely agree. It just seems absolutely nuts that the US government (or rather the state governments, because ultimately they'd be dealing with it) cannot attribute a gun to a purchase because they've specifically made it illegal to do so. When you're dealing with that mindset, no wonder gun control measures as unremarkable as mandatory safes and training are anathema.

alephnerd 1y ago
As a former legislative assistant during the Aurora shooting, it's because gun abolitionists and gun fundamentalists are extremely organized interest groups, and risk your chances during a primary. There is a silent majority that feels the 2nd amendment and gun control can co-exist, but they are not represented by any type of organized lobbying group so that voice is not heard. It's also become a culture war signifier, so if you are a D who is fine with controlled gun ownership instead of abolition, you will face severe lobbying from Everytown, and if you are a R who is fine with controlled permitting instead of maximalist shall-issue licensing, you will face severe lobbying from the NRA.
- Aloisius 1y ago
  We can't even get anything as minor as firing pin microstamping implemented. It's shocking how effective the opposition to it has been.
  - agensaequivocum 1y ago
    No, for many reasons including that the technology does not work.
  - LorenPechtel 1y ago
    And herein lies a clear demonstration of the problem. A firing pin is designed to slam metal into metal. Do you really think a detailed pattern on the end of the pin will not soon become too blurred to be useful? Even if somebody doesn't take an abrasive to it. And it's not like a firing pin is somehow unique to the gun. They are wear items, in time they get replaced. And you have to be able to take the moving parts of a gun apart for cleaning, there's no way to ensure a given pin doesn't get swapped to another gun. And this once again comes back to at best only being useful in the cases where the gun was legally purchased, which is a very small part of gun crime.
    - Aloisius 1y ago
      Testing has demonstrated that microstamping remains readable on casings after thousands of rounds with a SEM. Moreover, even if it wasn't, who cares? It would still be an improvement over what currently exists (unintentional microstamping) given a fair number of guns that are used in crimes have barely been fired. Nor does it matter if someone switches the firing pin since criminals aren't likely to do that. They don't even file down serial numbers most of the time. The fact that it isn't absolutely 100% perfect doesn't mean it isn't better.
      - LorenPechtel 1y ago
        This still comes down to the basic problem that the vast majority of crime guns were not obtained by legal means. Yes, criminals don't file down serial numbers because there's no reason to as the serial number isn't connected to them.
        Aloisius 1y ago
        While the vast majority aren't obtained through legal means, a surprisingly large percentage can be connected to the individual who committed a crime with one. According to the BJS, of those in prison in 2016 who had a firearm during the offense they were in for, 7.5% purchased it legally under their own name and 25.3% obtained it from family or friends. An older 2004 Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities showed 12% obtaining them from retail and 41% from family/friends. Criminals don't file down serial numbers not because there's no reason, but criminals don't think they'll be caught. Most simply don't think very far ahead. Micro-stamping isn't perfect, but again, it is better. If it can lead to arrests in even a small percentage of the thousands of unsolved murders ever year, it would be a huge win with little downside.
        LorenPechtel 1y ago
        And the evidence that those family/friends obtained it legally? And how many of those "purchased it legally" were in private party transactions that didn't require a background check?
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > We can't even get anything as minor as firing pin microstamping implemented > It's shocking how effective the opposition to it has been. It's becuase the patent for microstamping is owned by a single and very litigious company [0]. There needs to be a non-patented OSS alternative, because the margins for manufacturing are extremely low. This is why there is pushback to microstamping from companies. Edit: did not realize the patent expired. Good callout. [0] - https://tac-labs.com/forensics/ https://tac-labs.com/forensics/
    - Aloisius 1y ago
      The patent expired five years ago. https://patents.google.com/patent/US6886284B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6886284B2/en
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
agensaequivocum 1y ago
The federal statute only prohibits the AG from promulgating a rule that would require the feds or the states from maintaining a registry. While unconstitutional, many states already have one such as CA, CT, DC, HI, MD, MI, NJ, NY.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
The basic problem is that a list of guns is the holy grail of the gun banners. Is it any wonder that the pro gun crowd is afraid of it? And the reality is that legally purchased guns account for a tiny fraction of gun crime. Stopping every gun purchase by even a would-be criminal is going to do very little except to the suicide rate. And the "unremarkable" measures often have nasty hidden details. Mandatory safes? Just exactly what do you count as a safe? Doesn't take much of a requirement on a safe before it becomes something that can only rest upon a proper foundation--thus completely prohibiting many apartment and condo dwellers. Put a bolt-down requirement on it and you have disallowed all renters. Training is looking at it backwards. We have a perfect model of how it should be handled: just look at driving. You pass a test of knowledge and a test of proficiency.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- multjoy 1y ago
  I’ve seen the standard of driving in the US. This is not the model you are looking for.

alephnerd 1y ago

As a former legislative assistant during the Aurora shooting, it's because gun abolitionists and gun fundamentalists are extremely organized interest groups, and risk your chances during a primary. There is a silent majority that feels the 2nd amendment and gun control can co-exist, but they are not represented by any type of organized lobbying group so that voice is not heard. It's also become a culture war signifier, so if you are a D who is fine with controlled gun ownership instead of abolition, you will face severe lobbying from Everytown, and if you are a R who is fine with controlled permitting instead of maximalist shall-issue licensing, you will face severe lobbying from the NRA.

Aloisius 1y ago
We can't even get anything as minor as firing pin microstamping implemented. It's shocking how effective the opposition to it has been.
- agensaequivocum 1y ago
  No, for many reasons including that the technology does not work.
- LorenPechtel 1y ago
  And herein lies a clear demonstration of the problem. A firing pin is designed to slam metal into metal. Do you really think a detailed pattern on the end of the pin will not soon become too blurred to be useful? Even if somebody doesn't take an abrasive to it. And it's not like a firing pin is somehow unique to the gun. They are wear items, in time they get replaced. And you have to be able to take the moving parts of a gun apart for cleaning, there's no way to ensure a given pin doesn't get swapped to another gun. And this once again comes back to at best only being useful in the cases where the gun was legally purchased, which is a very small part of gun crime.
  - Aloisius 1y ago
    Testing has demonstrated that microstamping remains readable on casings after thousands of rounds with a SEM. Moreover, even if it wasn't, who cares? It would still be an improvement over what currently exists (unintentional microstamping) given a fair number of guns that are used in crimes have barely been fired. Nor does it matter if someone switches the firing pin since criminals aren't likely to do that. They don't even file down serial numbers most of the time. The fact that it isn't absolutely 100% perfect doesn't mean it isn't better.
    - LorenPechtel 1y ago
      This still comes down to the basic problem that the vast majority of crime guns were not obtained by legal means. Yes, criminals don't file down serial numbers because there's no reason to as the serial number isn't connected to them.
      - Aloisius 1y ago
        While the vast majority aren't obtained through legal means, a surprisingly large percentage can be connected to the individual who committed a crime with one. According to the BJS, of those in prison in 2016 who had a firearm during the offense they were in for, 7.5% purchased it legally under their own name and 25.3% obtained it from family or friends. An older 2004 Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities showed 12% obtaining them from retail and 41% from family/friends. Criminals don't file down serial numbers not because there's no reason, but criminals don't think they'll be caught. Most simply don't think very far ahead. Micro-stamping isn't perfect, but again, it is better. If it can lead to arrests in even a small percentage of the thousands of unsolved murders ever year, it would be a huge win with little downside.
        LorenPechtel 1y ago
        And the evidence that those family/friends obtained it legally? And how many of those "purchased it legally" were in private party transactions that didn't require a background check?
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > We can't even get anything as minor as firing pin microstamping implemented > It's shocking how effective the opposition to it has been. It's becuase the patent for microstamping is owned by a single and very litigious company [0]. There needs to be a non-patented OSS alternative, because the margins for manufacturing are extremely low. This is why there is pushback to microstamping from companies. Edit: did not realize the patent expired. Good callout. [0] - https://tac-labs.com/forensics/ https://tac-labs.com/forensics/
  - Aloisius 1y ago
    The patent expired five years ago. https://patents.google.com/patent/US6886284B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6886284B2/en
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

agensaequivocum 1y ago

The federal statute only prohibits the AG from promulgating a rule that would require the feds or the states from maintaining a registry. While unconstitutional, many states already have one such as CA, CT, DC, HI, MD, MI, NJ, NY.

LorenPechtel 1y ago

The basic problem is that a list of guns is the holy grail of the gun banners. Is it any wonder that the pro gun crowd is afraid of it? And the reality is that legally purchased guns account for a tiny fraction of gun crime. Stopping every gun purchase by even a would-be criminal is going to do very little except to the suicide rate. And the "unremarkable" measures often have nasty hidden details. Mandatory safes? Just exactly what do you count as a safe? Doesn't take much of a requirement on a safe before it becomes something that can only rest upon a proper foundation--thus completely prohibiting many apartment and condo dwellers. Put a bolt-down requirement on it and you have disallowed all renters. Training is looking at it backwards. We have a perfect model of how it should be handled: just look at driving. You pass a test of knowledge and a test of proficiency.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
multjoy 1y ago
I’ve seen the standard of driving in the US. This is not the model you are looking for.