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It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. Th

It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. This was obviously terrible since it greatly slowed down innovation. I'm not sure what the correct solution is to this problem. We want to avoid anything that causes a return of the guild system, but at the same time we don't want small inventors steamrolled by large corporations. That said, I think corporations should be much more limited in their Patent powers. In fact it's questionable how much value society gets out of large corporation patents. If another large corporation "steals" the idea and capitalizes on it first that is their own fault. The only people who profit are the lawyers.

tmcdos 1y ago
And what is wrong with competition? If someone else makes a product or service better than you - why should you get the benefits and not him/her? The correct solution is to freely share all knowledge (IP). Open source is not perfect but it is a step in the right direction. P2P and torrents is another step in the right direction.
cactacea 1y ago
> it's questionable how much value society gets out of large corporations ftfy It ain't just patents
dec0dedab0de 1y ago
I think relying on trade secrets for many things would actually be an improvement over what we have now. You could still keep your recipe secret, but someone else could come up with something similar with no risk.
- thayne 1y ago
  Not to mention that patents are so (intentionally) difficult to understand that even patented technology is basically trade secrets now anyway. And the useful designs are protected by NDAs.
  - jandrese 1y ago
    You can't put a NDA on a Patent. NDAs are basically the modern version of guilds. Imagine a world where absolutely everything about your job is kept under a strict NDA. This is true of startups, but it doesn't scale, especially once you start actually selling product and need to make customers happy to get the sale.
    - thayne 1y ago
      > You can't put a NDA on a Patent. On the patent itself, no. But on design docs, CAD files, source code, circuit diagrams, etc. you can, and it is common practice to require NDAs for anyone who has access to them. And in some cases copyright law is also used to protect them. > Imagine a world where absolutely everything about your job is kept under a strict NDA. This is true of startups, but it doesn't scale, especially once you start actually selling product and need to make customers happy to get the sale. This is already a reality at many companies, including large ones.
    - immibis 1y ago
      It's much easier to spread information now than in the past. NDAs are slow leaks if you don't keep your employees tightly monitored at all times. Or if they play War Thunder.
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      So make NDAs unenforceable.
  - f1shy 1y ago
    Where I work it takes months of lawyers, just to understand of one idea we have is an infringement or not. Is a mined field, on purpose.
    - me-vs-cat 1y ago
      > it takes months of lawyers, just to understand if one idea we have is an infringement or not. Even after that work, you don't know if your idea is infringing. All you have is a prediction on whether it will be found infringing if you are ever sued.
logicchains 1y ago
>It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. This was obviously terrible since it greatly slowed down innovation. Nowadays HFT technology is extremely competitive, with firms investing tens of millions in custom harder to achieve nanosecond latency improvements, but all this has happened entirely without patents. As an industry HFT is way less monopolised than tech, suggesting trade secrets alone are enough to achieve growth and competition.
- jandrese 1y ago
  I don't think I would use HFT as a stand-in for companies that produce useful goods or services.
taeric 1y ago
I mean, with limiting the allowed use of force to guard secrets, we are probably nowhere near as at risk for the worst of the past? As you said, the competition to guard secrets could be quite severe, and they were not exactly good at knowing actual leaks of their secrets versus someone else independently arriving at them. That is, I think having the assumption of independent discovery would go a long way to preventing abuse. I could see some hazard that small shops can't protect their secrets from partner manufacturers and such. But that is exactly where we are with a lot of stuff today?
- entropicdrifter 1y ago
  Ah yes, if only murder had been illegal back then! Yes, making murder illegal must have been what was missing. Sorry, but your argument has a bit of a silly premise.
  - taeric 1y ago
    That is silly. My point was that we have better law enforcement period. Are we currently perfect? Of course not. But to use that as your argument is, amusingly, a silly premise for an argument.
    - hobo_in_library 1y ago
      Yes, that's why the people behind the United whistle blower "suicide" or the Epstein "suicide" we promptly brought to justice /s Our law enforcement is "better" when it comes to enforcing the law against the lower 99%. When it comes to enforcing it against the kind of people who're actually likely to kill to protect their secrets...good luck
      - taeric 1y ago
        I would expect things like this were far more prevalent in previous times. Like, comically so. Again, we should continue to push for better things. But don't ignore how much better we are from where we were.
nine_k 1y ago
(Repeating for umpteenth time:) I wish patent fees were exponential. Pay $10 the first year, $40 the second year, $160 the third year,.. $10,485,760 the tenth year, etc. The patent expires and goes to public domain the first year when the fee has not been not paid. This way there'd be enough time to commercialize an invention for basically peanuts, so the small guy won't be dissuaded from doing so. OTOH holding on a patent for a very long time would only be possible if it brings gobs of money, end even so, only for a reasonably limited time, because on 15th year the fee would be $10,737,418,240.
- knob 1y ago
  This is actually a ... solid idea upon short consideration! I like it! Thank you for posting it: I hadn't seen it before.
- f1shy 1y ago
  This is an excellent idea. I would still limit the time though. Also inflation should be taken into account (maybe) not that in 10 years 10M dollars is a chocolate.
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Thanks! The idea is not mine :) I think that the exponent grows so fast that it completely dwarfs normal inflation. If the inflation goes out of hand, Zimbabwe-style, then I won't expect patent enforcement to matter or work either. But well, a term like 15-20 years could be added just in case.
- foobarian 1y ago
  That still seems pretty easy to game by re-filing slight variations of the original patents
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Won't these be invalidated by having prior art already in public domain?
  - 1y ago
vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
“ In fact it's questionable how much value society gets out of large corporation patents” I think it’s overwhelmingly negative. They are killing innovation by small players and don’t produce much innovation compared to their size.
dvdkon 1y ago
I feel like patents are nowadays only used for things that would be easy to reverse-engineer or must be made public anyway. You can't recreate any modern technology by looking at patents, from semiconductor manufacturing to food processing. So if patents have lost their original purpose, I don't see any value left in perpetuating the system.
f1shy 1y ago
Was really so (specifically “lethal”? Do you have sources? I know trade secret was much more important. Also the spirit of patents is to allow development by making all public. But do they?! I’m tired of trying to extract useful information off patents, they are empty of content and full of BS is laywer language. Real important details are kept secret, as long as possible. The current system is de facto not working properly. I’m not saying is the worst, or I have better ideas, but is clear that the system is being heavily abused in all corners.
- buzer 1y ago
  > Was really so (specifically “lethal”? Do you have sources? Pretty famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_glass#Island_of_Murano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_glass#Island_of_Muran... > Glassmakers were not allowed to leave the island without permission from the government. Leaving without permission, or revealing trade secrets, was punishable by death Though importantly this was enforced by state.
- Mtinie 1y ago
  It could be lethal if a guild member attempted to share secrets or sell methods to a competitive guild. An example: "In 1754 the State Inquisitors of Venice learned that a worker at Daniele Miotti's factory had fled abroad with a copy of his master's books. Fearing that he would divulge secrets—especially in Bohemia, where there were important glass factories—they ordered his death." Source: Zecchin, P., (2025) “Una condanna a morte di dubbia utilità: Sarebbe stato molto grave, per i vetrai muranesi, se il seicentesco ricettario Miotti fosse caduto nelle mani dei Boemi?”, Journal of Glass Studies 66: 7. doi: https://doi.org/10.3998/jgs.6939 https://doi.org/10.3998/jgs.6939 Just how widespread it was for violent and lethal actions to be carried out in pursuit of maintaining guild secrecy, the evidence is murky.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    It seems pretty unlikely that guild secrets could be sustained against the modern internet in the absence of any legal protections. One disgruntled employee and your secrets are anonymously contributed to the Wikipedia article on your product.

tmcdos 1y ago

And what is wrong with competition? If someone else makes a product or service better than you - why should you get the benefits and not him/her? The correct solution is to freely share all knowledge (IP). Open source is not perfect but it is a step in the right direction. P2P and torrents is another step in the right direction.

cactacea 1y ago

> it's questionable how much value society gets out of large corporations ftfy It ain't just patents

dec0dedab0de 1y ago

I think relying on trade secrets for many things would actually be an improvement over what we have now. You could still keep your recipe secret, but someone else could come up with something similar with no risk.

thayne 1y ago
Not to mention that patents are so (intentionally) difficult to understand that even patented technology is basically trade secrets now anyway. And the useful designs are protected by NDAs.
- jandrese 1y ago
  You can't put a NDA on a Patent. NDAs are basically the modern version of guilds. Imagine a world where absolutely everything about your job is kept under a strict NDA. This is true of startups, but it doesn't scale, especially once you start actually selling product and need to make customers happy to get the sale.
  - thayne 1y ago
    > You can't put a NDA on a Patent. On the patent itself, no. But on design docs, CAD files, source code, circuit diagrams, etc. you can, and it is common practice to require NDAs for anyone who has access to them. And in some cases copyright law is also used to protect them. > Imagine a world where absolutely everything about your job is kept under a strict NDA. This is true of startups, but it doesn't scale, especially once you start actually selling product and need to make customers happy to get the sale. This is already a reality at many companies, including large ones.
  - immibis 1y ago
    It's much easier to spread information now than in the past. NDAs are slow leaks if you don't keep your employees tightly monitored at all times. Or if they play War Thunder.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    So make NDAs unenforceable.
- f1shy 1y ago
  Where I work it takes months of lawyers, just to understand of one idea we have is an infringement or not. Is a mined field, on purpose.
  - me-vs-cat 1y ago
    > it takes months of lawyers, just to understand if one idea we have is an infringement or not. Even after that work, you don't know if your idea is infringing. All you have is a prediction on whether it will be found infringing if you are ever sued.

logicchains 1y ago

>It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. This was obviously terrible since it greatly slowed down innovation. Nowadays HFT technology is extremely competitive, with firms investing tens of millions in custom harder to achieve nanosecond latency improvements, but all this has happened entirely without patents. As an industry HFT is way less monopolised than tech, suggesting trade secrets alone are enough to achieve growth and competition.

jandrese 1y ago
I don't think I would use HFT as a stand-in for companies that produce useful goods or services.

taeric 1y ago

I mean, with limiting the allowed use of force to guard secrets, we are probably nowhere near as at risk for the worst of the past? As you said, the competition to guard secrets could be quite severe, and they were not exactly good at knowing actual leaks of their secrets versus someone else independently arriving at them. That is, I think having the assumption of independent discovery would go a long way to preventing abuse. I could see some hazard that small shops can't protect their secrets from partner manufacturers and such. But that is exactly where we are with a lot of stuff today?

entropicdrifter 1y ago
Ah yes, if only murder had been illegal back then! Yes, making murder illegal must have been what was missing. Sorry, but your argument has a bit of a silly premise.
- taeric 1y ago
  That is silly. My point was that we have better law enforcement period. Are we currently perfect? Of course not. But to use that as your argument is, amusingly, a silly premise for an argument.
  - hobo_in_library 1y ago
    Yes, that's why the people behind the United whistle blower "suicide" or the Epstein "suicide" we promptly brought to justice /s Our law enforcement is "better" when it comes to enforcing the law against the lower 99%. When it comes to enforcing it against the kind of people who're actually likely to kill to protect their secrets...good luck
    - taeric 1y ago
      I would expect things like this were far more prevalent in previous times. Like, comically so. Again, we should continue to push for better things. But don't ignore how much better we are from where we were.

nine_k 1y ago

(Repeating for umpteenth time:) I wish patent fees were exponential. Pay $10 the first year, $40 the second year, $160 the third year,.. $10,485,760 the tenth year, etc. The patent expires and goes to public domain the first year when the fee has not been not paid. This way there'd be enough time to commercialize an invention for basically peanuts, so the small guy won't be dissuaded from doing so. OTOH holding on a patent for a very long time would only be possible if it brings gobs of money, end even so, only for a reasonably limited time, because on 15th year the fee would be $10,737,418,240.

knob 1y ago
This is actually a ... solid idea upon short consideration! I like it! Thank you for posting it: I hadn't seen it before.
f1shy 1y ago
This is an excellent idea. I would still limit the time though. Also inflation should be taken into account (maybe) not that in 10 years 10M dollars is a chocolate.
- nine_k 1y ago
  Thanks! The idea is not mine :) I think that the exponent grows so fast that it completely dwarfs normal inflation. If the inflation goes out of hand, Zimbabwe-style, then I won't expect patent enforcement to matter or work either. But well, a term like 15-20 years could be added just in case.
foobarian 1y ago
That still seems pretty easy to game by re-filing slight variations of the original patents
- nine_k 1y ago
  Won't these be invalidated by having prior art already in public domain?
- 1y ago

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago

“ In fact it's questionable how much value society gets out of large corporation patents” I think it’s overwhelmingly negative. They are killing innovation by small players and don’t produce much innovation compared to their size.

dvdkon 1y ago

I feel like patents are nowadays only used for things that would be easy to reverse-engineer or must be made public anyway. You can't recreate any modern technology by looking at patents, from semiconductor manufacturing to food processing. So if patents have lost their original purpose, I don't see any value left in perpetuating the system.

f1shy 1y ago

Was really so (specifically “lethal”? Do you have sources? I know trade secret was much more important. Also the spirit of patents is to allow development by making all public. But do they?! I’m tired of trying to extract useful information off patents, they are empty of content and full of BS is laywer language. Real important details are kept secret, as long as possible. The current system is de facto not working properly. I’m not saying is the worst, or I have better ideas, but is clear that the system is being heavily abused in all corners.

buzer 1y ago
> Was really so (specifically “lethal”? Do you have sources? Pretty famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_glass#Island_of_Murano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_glass#Island_of_Muran... > Glassmakers were not allowed to leave the island without permission from the government. Leaving without permission, or revealing trade secrets, was punishable by death Though importantly this was enforced by state.
Mtinie 1y ago
It could be lethal if a guild member attempted to share secrets or sell methods to a competitive guild. An example: "In 1754 the State Inquisitors of Venice learned that a worker at Daniele Miotti's factory had fled abroad with a copy of his master's books. Fearing that he would divulge secrets—especially in Bohemia, where there were important glass factories—they ordered his death." Source: Zecchin, P., (2025) “Una condanna a morte di dubbia utilità: Sarebbe stato molto grave, per i vetrai muranesi, se il seicentesco ricettario Miotti fosse caduto nelle mani dei Boemi?”, Journal of Glass Studies 66: 7. doi: https://doi.org/10.3998/jgs.6939 https://doi.org/10.3998/jgs.6939 Just how widespread it was for violent and lethal actions to be carried out in pursuit of maintaining guild secrecy, the evidence is murky.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  It seems pretty unlikely that guild secrets could be sustained against the modern internet in the absence of any legal protections. One disgruntled employee and your secrets are anonymously contributed to the Wikipedia article on your product.