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> The universality of copy/paste is overrated. It's literally just adding shift in terminal emulators, no biggie. I used to think this before I got a job in a

> The universality of copy/paste is overrated. It's literally just adding shift in terminal emulators, no biggie. I used to think this before I got a job in a Mac-only company. I've since installed Toshy on every Linux machine I own & the difference is night & day. Having to do something extra for terminals to achieve the thing that's so simple & natural (& frequent) in GUIs just feels like terminal emulators are being treated like second class citizens among the installed apps. Having the same shortcuts "Just Work" in exactly the same way through all apps isn't just more convenient, it feels like the OS is elevating terminals to an equal tier of integration. Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to.

doix 1y ago
I have the exact opposite problem on a Mac. Things don't just work. You can select text in the terminal and then middle click to paste it. But that only works in the terminal, not anywhere else. Catches me out a bunch. There is also only a single copy buffer, so to copy from the terminal and paste into a browser I need to replace what was in my clipboard, drives me insane. > Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. Because you get used to it and then don't think about it. I value having two copy buffers over consistency for the sake of consistency.
- pinoy420 1y ago
  Command c command v works fine for me because I don’t “optimise” my experience. It’s a fun game to do I guess but if you become “more productive” by having a slightly quicker mechanism to find a file through 9 different chords on your terminal only interface - you likely aren’t solving problems that are worthwhile.
  - doix 1y ago
    I've heard this opinion worded slightly different many, many times over the years. I just can't agree with it. You're going to spend thousands of hours infront of a computer, it makes sense to invest time in being "efficient". You reach a point of diminishing returns with everything. You can only gain so much knowledge/intelligence/experience before every increase in that becomes extremely difficult. Trying to become "smarter" when you are already "smart" is much harder than getting easy efficiency wins. There are people that take it to the extreme of course, where they spend all their time on extremely tiny efficiency wins instead of learning how to program, but that's the same problem in reverse. It's a pretty old concept, the first time I've seen it given a proper name was "aggregation of marginal gains" [0]. [0] https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains
    - troupo 1y ago
      > it makes sense to invest time in being "efficient". It does. However, spending time remembering which of the different weird buffers something is pasted into is not being efficient.
      - 0points 1y ago
        It's not "weird buffers". It's a feature you're not accustomed to.
        troupo 1y ago
        Yes. Yes they are weird buffers in that you have to spend some (minor) effort remembering what exactly is in the "clipboard", "selection", and the difference of invoking them between apps (e.g. having to Ctrl+Shift+V in the terminal). Oh, and the fact that selection buffer gets overwritten if you switch between apps with active selections. Oh, usually there's also a cherry on top in that everyone's darling, vim, doesn't even interact with any of those and has its own buffers aka registers. I'm sure if there was a way to track how many time you make and undo mistakes in copy-pasting the wrong thing from the wrong buffer, your assumptions would be seriously challenged.
        0points 1y ago
        > I'm sure if there was a way to track how many time you make and undo mistakes in copy-pasting the wrong thing from the wrong buffer, your assumptions would be seriously challenged. > Oh, and the fact that selection buffer gets overwritten if you switch between apps with active selections. What can I tell you... Use a clipboard manager. The end.
        troupo 1y ago
        > Use a clipboard manager. > The end. Does it fix the issue with the multiple buffers and minor annoyances? No. It just adds a different friction point. The end.
- trinix912 1y ago
  A clipboard manager solves all of this and doesn't break the consistency and expectation that the same shortcut copies/pastes to/from the same place.
  - doix 1y ago
    Which one do you recommend? I tried multiple when switching, but none of them quite worked right. I want: * Two seperate buffers * Separate shortcuts to paste them * Selecting text _anywhere_ automatically puts it into the second buffer I couldn't find anything that did this, so I just gave up and deal with it on my work laptop (and occasionally whine about it on HN when it comes up)
- lucideer 1y ago
  > You can select text in the terminal and then middle click to paste it. But that only works in the terminal, not anywhere else. I guess this is likely an odd affordance to unix norms rather than a planned/intended shortcut (I've never tried it & never knew it worked anywhere). I'm not much of a mouse user in terminals though so I guess it would just be a little less natural.
jurip 1y ago
Also Emacs keybindings. Being able to use your text editor muscle memory for editing in every text field of every native app is fantastic.
- koiueo 1y ago
  > every native app That's a very big fineprint. With three most popular apps among developers being (I imagine) browser, jetbrains ides and vs code derivatives, all being non-native, muscle memory becomes pretty unreliable. But yeah, would be big, if it indeed was universally supported
- Tor3 1y ago
  My muscle memory automatically uses Emacs keybindings for this, in editors like Pluma.. and the whole buffer is gone. Fortunately there's an "undo" option. But I really want Emacs keybindings to work everywhere. I have my various shells set that way.
miohtama 1y ago
> Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. It's likely that the users who find this annoying will simply stop using Linux.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  I find it annoying, it just.. is what it is, you know? Not like other OS choices don't come with their own annoyances, so I have to choose whichever warts I can live with. Right now, that's Linux.
JoshTriplett 1y ago
I learned Ctrl-C for "kill program" very nearly before Ctrl-C for copy existed, and long before it existed on any platform I used. I value consistency, but I also value consistency with common practice for the type of application I'm using. The common failure mode, for me, isn't hitting Ctrl-C for copy in a terminal by mistake, it's hitting Ctrl-Shift-C for copy in a browser and ending up with the console open, or hitting Ctrl-W to delete a word and having it close a tab.
- Galanwe 1y ago
  This drives me nuts as well, the number of times I close a tab with C-W, or select all with C-A... My brain can "switch mode" when on a regular web page, but if I open some kind of "terminal in a page" (i.e. I the AWS console), then I'm 100% it will end up with a C-W.
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    For me, it happens most often when I have a call open in a browser in one window, and a terminal open on the other half of the screen taking notes, and then switch to the call and start typing something in the chat.
    - koiueo 1y ago
      I'd say Ctrl+W is just a terrible shortcut for closing a tab. It's right near Ctrl+Q, which usually quits an application. While Q is mnemonic, W is not. It's too ergonomic and requires very little wrist movement for such a destructive action. I understand your pain, but I blame the author of this weird convention for the "close tab" action, whoever they are
      - oniony 1y ago
        I think it came from the close window shortcut on Windows back when browsers didn't have tabs.
  - nyarlathotep_ 1y ago
franga2000 1y ago
What exactly does Toshy do for you? The readme is incomprehensible... For the specific case of copy-paste in a terminal, you either have to press something extra for paste or something extra for SIGINT - there is no secret third option. You could remap copy (bad for muscle memory) or remap sigint (similarly bad for muscle memory, but also confusing since many terminal apps mention CTRL+C explicitly). I guess a better place for copy/paste would be WIN+C/V, since it feels like a global function and not an app-specific one, but the way clipboard is implemented makes it an app shortcut by necessity. This convention also doesn't hold with things like ALT+TAB (switch windows) and CTRL+Q (close window), both of which feel like "system" shortcuts but don't use WIN. So I guess my point is...keybinds are already a mess "because legacy" and any attempt at solving that mess would just result in less universality and worse muscle memory, which goes against their whole reason for existing. In the grand scheme of things, "when in a terminal, press shift to escape key combos" is a very easy convention to get used to. Also work for mouse integration, for example if you have vim open and mouse integration enabled, but want to select and copy using the system clipboard.
- masfuerte 1y ago
  In Windows Terminal CTRL+C is copy if there is a selection and interrupt otherwise. It's very natural.
  - Flockster 1y ago
    You can do this with many terminal emulators on linux too. I did it with konsole and tilix, just change the copy and paste shortcut and you get this "natural copy" behavior.
- lucideer 1y ago
  Toshy makes Cmd-C copy in all Linux apps: both GUIs & Terminals. This avoids any clashes with Ctrl in terminal as you're using Cmd for shortcuts everywhere instead. > there is no secret third option I assume you're thinking of trying to use Ctrl-C in terminals? The secret third option is never using Ctrl at all outside of terminals. > I guess a better place for copy/paste would be WIN+C/V Yeah that would likely be the equivalent of Cmd if you're using a Windows keyboard. That is how it's configured across all apps by default in macOS & Toshy just ports that sensibility over to Linux.
adastra22 1y ago
I use SIGINT more frequently in a terminal than copy-paste. I suspect this is also true of most power users. That’s why the situation is the way it is.
- lucideer 1y ago
  I don't think you understand - macOS prioritises SIGINT use by introducing a new keyboard key for copy/paste instead of masking Ctrl. Using SIGINT more frequently is exactly the point.
- ItsHarper 1y ago
  Since Toshy is emulating Mac behavior, I imagine that copy/paste shortcuts move from the Ctrl key to the Super key.
0points 1y ago
> Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. We use copy on select... what's all of this keyboard shenanigans /s

doix 1y ago

I have the exact opposite problem on a Mac. Things don't just work. You can select text in the terminal and then middle click to paste it. But that only works in the terminal, not anywhere else. Catches me out a bunch. There is also only a single copy buffer, so to copy from the terminal and paste into a browser I need to replace what was in my clipboard, drives me insane. > Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. Because you get used to it and then don't think about it. I value having two copy buffers over consistency for the sake of consistency.

pinoy420 1y ago
Command c command v works fine for me because I don’t “optimise” my experience. It’s a fun game to do I guess but if you become “more productive” by having a slightly quicker mechanism to find a file through 9 different chords on your terminal only interface - you likely aren’t solving problems that are worthwhile.
- doix 1y ago
  I've heard this opinion worded slightly different many, many times over the years. I just can't agree with it. You're going to spend thousands of hours infront of a computer, it makes sense to invest time in being "efficient". You reach a point of diminishing returns with everything. You can only gain so much knowledge/intelligence/experience before every increase in that becomes extremely difficult. Trying to become "smarter" when you are already "smart" is much harder than getting easy efficiency wins. There are people that take it to the extreme of course, where they spend all their time on extremely tiny efficiency wins instead of learning how to program, but that's the same problem in reverse. It's a pretty old concept, the first time I've seen it given a proper name was "aggregation of marginal gains" [0]. [0] https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains https://jamesclear.com/marginal-gains
  - troupo 1y ago
    > it makes sense to invest time in being "efficient". It does. However, spending time remembering which of the different weird buffers something is pasted into is not being efficient.
    - 0points 1y ago
      It's not "weird buffers". It's a feature you're not accustomed to.
      - troupo 1y ago
        Yes. Yes they are weird buffers in that you have to spend some (minor) effort remembering what exactly is in the "clipboard", "selection", and the difference of invoking them between apps (e.g. having to Ctrl+Shift+V in the terminal). Oh, and the fact that selection buffer gets overwritten if you switch between apps with active selections. Oh, usually there's also a cherry on top in that everyone's darling, vim, doesn't even interact with any of those and has its own buffers aka registers. I'm sure if there was a way to track how many time you make and undo mistakes in copy-pasting the wrong thing from the wrong buffer, your assumptions would be seriously challenged.
        0points 1y ago
        > I'm sure if there was a way to track how many time you make and undo mistakes in copy-pasting the wrong thing from the wrong buffer, your assumptions would be seriously challenged. > Oh, and the fact that selection buffer gets overwritten if you switch between apps with active selections. What can I tell you... Use a clipboard manager. The end.
        troupo 1y ago
        > Use a clipboard manager. > The end. Does it fix the issue with the multiple buffers and minor annoyances? No. It just adds a different friction point. The end.
trinix912 1y ago
A clipboard manager solves all of this and doesn't break the consistency and expectation that the same shortcut copies/pastes to/from the same place.
- doix 1y ago
  Which one do you recommend? I tried multiple when switching, but none of them quite worked right. I want: * Two seperate buffers * Separate shortcuts to paste them * Selecting text _anywhere_ automatically puts it into the second buffer I couldn't find anything that did this, so I just gave up and deal with it on my work laptop (and occasionally whine about it on HN when it comes up)
lucideer 1y ago
> You can select text in the terminal and then middle click to paste it. But that only works in the terminal, not anywhere else. I guess this is likely an odd affordance to unix norms rather than a planned/intended shortcut (I've never tried it & never knew it worked anywhere). I'm not much of a mouse user in terminals though so I guess it would just be a little less natural.

jurip 1y ago

Also Emacs keybindings. Being able to use your text editor muscle memory for editing in every text field of every native app is fantastic.

koiueo 1y ago
> every native app That's a very big fineprint. With three most popular apps among developers being (I imagine) browser, jetbrains ides and vs code derivatives, all being non-native, muscle memory becomes pretty unreliable. But yeah, would be big, if it indeed was universally supported
Tor3 1y ago
My muscle memory automatically uses Emacs keybindings for this, in editors like Pluma.. and the whole buffer is gone. Fortunately there's an "undo" option. But I really want Emacs keybindings to work everywhere. I have my various shells set that way.

miohtama 1y ago

> Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. It's likely that the users who find this annoying will simply stop using Linux.

bigstrat2003 1y ago
I find it annoying, it just.. is what it is, you know? Not like other OS choices don't come with their own annoyances, so I have to choose whichever warts I can live with. Right now, that's Linux.

JoshTriplett 1y ago

I learned Ctrl-C for "kill program" very nearly before Ctrl-C for copy existed, and long before it existed on any platform I used. I value consistency, but I also value consistency with common practice for the type of application I'm using. The common failure mode, for me, isn't hitting Ctrl-C for copy in a terminal by mistake, it's hitting Ctrl-Shift-C for copy in a browser and ending up with the console open, or hitting Ctrl-W to delete a word and having it close a tab.

Galanwe 1y ago
This drives me nuts as well, the number of times I close a tab with C-W, or select all with C-A... My brain can "switch mode" when on a regular web page, but if I open some kind of "terminal in a page" (i.e. I the AWS console), then I'm 100% it will end up with a C-W.
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  For me, it happens most often when I have a call open in a browser in one window, and a terminal open on the other half of the screen taking notes, and then switch to the call and start typing something in the chat.
  - koiueo 1y ago
    I'd say Ctrl+W is just a terrible shortcut for closing a tab. It's right near Ctrl+Q, which usually quits an application. While Q is mnemonic, W is not. It's too ergonomic and requires very little wrist movement for such a destructive action. I understand your pain, but I blame the author of this weird convention for the "close tab" action, whoever they are
    - oniony 1y ago
      I think it came from the close window shortcut on Windows back when browsers didn't have tabs.
- nyarlathotep_ 1y ago

franga2000 1y ago

What exactly does Toshy do for you? The readme is incomprehensible... For the specific case of copy-paste in a terminal, you either have to press something extra for paste or something extra for SIGINT - there is no secret third option. You could remap copy (bad for muscle memory) or remap sigint (similarly bad for muscle memory, but also confusing since many terminal apps mention CTRL+C explicitly). I guess a better place for copy/paste would be WIN+C/V, since it feels like a global function and not an app-specific one, but the way clipboard is implemented makes it an app shortcut by necessity. This convention also doesn't hold with things like ALT+TAB (switch windows) and CTRL+Q (close window), both of which feel like "system" shortcuts but don't use WIN. So I guess my point is...keybinds are already a mess "because legacy" and any attempt at solving that mess would just result in less universality and worse muscle memory, which goes against their whole reason for existing. In the grand scheme of things, "when in a terminal, press shift to escape key combos" is a very easy convention to get used to. Also work for mouse integration, for example if you have vim open and mouse integration enabled, but want to select and copy using the system clipboard.

masfuerte 1y ago
In Windows Terminal CTRL+C is copy if there is a selection and interrupt otherwise. It's very natural.
- Flockster 1y ago
  You can do this with many terminal emulators on linux too. I did it with konsole and tilix, just change the copy and paste shortcut and you get this "natural copy" behavior.
lucideer 1y ago
Toshy makes Cmd-C copy in all Linux apps: both GUIs & Terminals. This avoids any clashes with Ctrl in terminal as you're using Cmd for shortcuts everywhere instead. > there is no secret third option I assume you're thinking of trying to use Ctrl-C in terminals? The secret third option is never using Ctrl at all outside of terminals. > I guess a better place for copy/paste would be WIN+C/V Yeah that would likely be the equivalent of Cmd if you're using a Windows keyboard. That is how it's configured across all apps by default in macOS & Toshy just ports that sensibility over to Linux.

adastra22 1y ago

I use SIGINT more frequently in a terminal than copy-paste. I suspect this is also true of most power users. That’s why the situation is the way it is.

lucideer 1y ago
I don't think you understand - macOS prioritises SIGINT use by introducing a new keyboard key for copy/paste instead of masking Ctrl. Using SIGINT more frequently is exactly the point.
ItsHarper 1y ago
Since Toshy is emulating Mac behavior, I imagine that copy/paste shortcuts move from the Ctrl key to the Super key.

0points 1y ago

> Which I would've really expected more Linux users would value more than they seem to. We use copy on select... what's all of this keyboard shenanigans /s