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Anything Hamas says must be judged against the track record of its past falsehoods and distortions, this is their norm, not the exception. If someone still take

by nelox 1y ago

Anything Hamas says must be judged against the track record of its past falsehoods and distortions, this is their norm, not the exception. If someone still takes their words at face value, no fact or evidence will change how they see them. Before October 2023, several high-profile Hamas claims were later undermined by evidence: after denying involvement in the June 2014 kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, senior Hamas leader Saleh al-Arouri publicly acknowledged the group’s role; while Hamas framed the 2018 “Great March of Return” as largely civilian, its own official Salah al-Bardawil said 50 of the 62 people killed on May 14, 2018 were Hamas members; despite Hamas’s insistence that it did not use civilian sites, the U.N. agency UNRWA repeatedly found rockets stored in its Gaza schools in 2014; and although Hamas dismissed allegations of abuses against Palestinian rivals, Amnesty International documented a 2014 campaign of abductions, torture and summary executions in Gaza. Sources: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-official-admits-organisation-was-behind-kidnapping-of-teenagers-9682299.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelg... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fifty-martyrs-were-hamas-members https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fif... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestin...

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The Gaza Health Ministry has a very good track record of providing verifiable death counts. It works on the basis of reports from hospitals, and keeps information (like name, ID number, age and gender) for every deceased person. A lot of that information can actually be verified by Israel, since Israel controls the Gaza population Registry. If these people later showed up alive, that would easily prove the Health Ministry is lying. Yet that hasn't happened. After past conflicts, outside organizations have reviewed the Health Ministry's numbers, and have determined them to be accurate, which is why major news organizations consider it reliable.[0] Even the Israeli government privately considers the numbers to be reliable and uses them in internal discussions, though it publicly claims them to be unreliable (the reader can guess why). Israeli intelligence has surveilled the Health Ministry, and came to the conclusion that it was working in good faith.[1] Again, this is completely different from what the Israeli government says in public. The Gaza Health Ministry has periodically released its entire list of verified deaths. You can read every person's name, age, etc.[2] The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-t... 1. https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/ https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7... 2. https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/ https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/
- mediumdeviation 1y ago
  > The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. Just to back this up - this study published in the Lancet estimates a 41% undercount for deaths up to June 30, 2024. The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02678-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The Guardian's summary: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-tol...
- stormking 1y ago
  Gaza Health Ministry === Hamas. Stop spreading terrorist's propaganda.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    This is exactly the sort of brain-dead take that my comment was meant to correct. The Gaza Health Ministry is a professional organization that has been found again and again to work reliably. Even Israeli intelligence has determined that the Gaza Health Ministry is reliable. Look, I don't like the fact that a far-right political party (founded by a literal terrorist, Menachem Begin) that wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza runs the Israeli government, but I still trust morgue data that comes out of Israel. The same goes for Gaza.
    - immibis 1y ago
      The Gaza Health Ministry was also completely destroyed in March 2024, because the increasing death toll was inconvenient. Since then, the most cited death toll ("more than 50,000") has been the one that was current in March 2024.
    - stormking 1y ago
      [flagged]
andrepd 1y ago
On the other hand, you're taking the ridiculous 20,000 "Hamas numbers" from Israel at face value. The 60,000 death toll is confirmed by multiple independent international organisations. Of course, remember Israel doesn't allow any press to enter Gaza and routinely kills the few that are still there.
- stormking 1y ago
  It is Hamas who does not allow free press in Gaza. Instead, their terrorists regularily dress up as "journalists".
  - rini17 1y ago
    So you say IDF is so inept it can't stop this after year and half? How much longer and what kind of escalation will it take? They are basically letting Hamas win this way. As if it was some unfathomable mysterious adversary that had not lived next door for decades.
    - stormking 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    This is yet another lie. https://www.timesofisrael.com/frances-fm-urges-israel-to-give-foreign-press-free-access-to-gaza-to-bear-witness/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/frances-fm-urges-israel-to-giv...

by nelox 1y ago

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

The Gaza Health Ministry has a very good track record of providing verifiable death counts. It works on the basis of reports from hospitals, and keeps information (like name, ID number, age and gender) for every deceased person. A lot of that information can actually be verified by Israel, since Israel controls the Gaza population Registry. If these people later showed up alive, that would easily prove the Health Ministry is lying. Yet that hasn't happened. After past conflicts, outside organizations have reviewed the Health Ministry's numbers, and have determined them to be accurate, which is why major news organizations consider it reliable.[0] Even the Israeli government privately considers the numbers to be reliable and uses them in internal discussions, though it publicly claims them to be unreliable (the reader can guess why). Israeli intelligence has surveilled the Health Ministry, and came to the conclusion that it was working in good faith.[1] Again, this is completely different from what the Israeli government says in public. The Gaza Health Ministry has periodically released its entire list of verified deaths. You can read every person's name, age, etc.[2] The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-t... 1. https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/ https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7... 2. https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/ https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/

mediumdeviation 1y ago
> The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. Just to back this up - this study published in the Lancet estimates a 41% undercount for deaths up to June 30, 2024. The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02678-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The Guardian's summary: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-tol...
stormking 1y ago
Gaza Health Ministry === Hamas. Stop spreading terrorist's propaganda.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  This is exactly the sort of brain-dead take that my comment was meant to correct. The Gaza Health Ministry is a professional organization that has been found again and again to work reliably. Even Israeli intelligence has determined that the Gaza Health Ministry is reliable. Look, I don't like the fact that a far-right political party (founded by a literal terrorist, Menachem Begin) that wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza runs the Israeli government, but I still trust morgue data that comes out of Israel. The same goes for Gaza.
  - immibis 1y ago
    The Gaza Health Ministry was also completely destroyed in March 2024, because the increasing death toll was inconvenient. Since then, the most cited death toll ("more than 50,000") has been the one that was current in March 2024.
  - stormking 1y ago
    [flagged]

andrepd 1y ago

On the other hand, you're taking the ridiculous 20,000 "Hamas numbers" from Israel at face value. The 60,000 death toll is confirmed by multiple independent international organisations. Of course, remember Israel doesn't allow any press to enter Gaza and routinely kills the few that are still there.

stormking 1y ago
It is Hamas who does not allow free press in Gaza. Instead, their terrorists regularily dress up as "journalists".
- rini17 1y ago
  So you say IDF is so inept it can't stop this after year and half? How much longer and what kind of escalation will it take? They are basically letting Hamas win this way. As if it was some unfathomable mysterious adversary that had not lived next door for decades.
  - stormking 1y ago
    [flagged]
- Saline9515 1y ago
  This is yet another lie. https://www.timesofisrael.com/frances-fm-urges-israel-to-give-foreign-press-free-access-to-gaza-to-bear-witness/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/frances-fm-urges-israel-to-giv...