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Even worst case sources not claiming anywhere near 10:1. As of early–mid August 2025, the Gaza Ministry of Health reports around 61,600 total deaths in Gaza si

by nelox 1y ago

Even worst case sources not claiming anywhere near 10:1. As of early–mid August 2025, the Gaza Ministry of Health reports around 61,600 total deaths in Gaza since the war began, without distinguishing between civilians and militants. The Israeli military’s most recent on-record statement (January 2025) claims it has killed about 20,000 Hamas operatives. Subtracting that claim from the total suggests roughly 41,600 civilians have died, an estimated civilian-to-militant ratio of about 2 to 1, though if lower militant-death estimates from independent analysts (10,000–15,000) are used, the ratio could be closer to 3–4 to 1. Both sides’ figures are contested, and humanitarian agencies such as the UN caution that these numbers are unverified and incomplete due to the difficulty of collecting accurate data in the conflict. Sources: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/8/7/israel-hamas-war-live-news https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/8/7/israel-hama... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/07/31/gaza-war-israel-hamas-palestinian-deaths/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/07/31/gaza-war-isr... https://ochaopt.org/updates/humanitarian-snapshot-casualties-gaza-strip-west-bank-7-january-2025 https://ochaopt.org/updates/humanitarian-snapshot-casualties...

nelox 1y ago
Anything Hamas says must be judged against the track record of its past falsehoods and distortions, this is their norm, not the exception. If someone still takes their words at face value, no fact or evidence will change how they see them. Before October 2023, several high-profile Hamas claims were later undermined by evidence: after denying involvement in the June 2014 kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, senior Hamas leader Saleh al-Arouri publicly acknowledged the group’s role; while Hamas framed the 2018 “Great March of Return” as largely civilian, its own official Salah al-Bardawil said 50 of the 62 people killed on May 14, 2018 were Hamas members; despite Hamas’s insistence that it did not use civilian sites, the U.N. agency UNRWA repeatedly found rockets stored in its Gaza schools in 2014; and although Hamas dismissed allegations of abuses against Palestinian rivals, Amnesty International documented a 2014 campaign of abductions, torture and summary executions in Gaza. Sources: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-official-admits-organisation-was-behind-kidnapping-of-teenagers-9682299.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelg... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fifty-martyrs-were-hamas-members https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fif... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestin...
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  The Gaza Health Ministry has a very good track record of providing verifiable death counts. It works on the basis of reports from hospitals, and keeps information (like name, ID number, age and gender) for every deceased person. A lot of that information can actually be verified by Israel, since Israel controls the Gaza population Registry. If these people later showed up alive, that would easily prove the Health Ministry is lying. Yet that hasn't happened. After past conflicts, outside organizations have reviewed the Health Ministry's numbers, and have determined them to be accurate, which is why major news organizations consider it reliable.[0] Even the Israeli government privately considers the numbers to be reliable and uses them in internal discussions, though it publicly claims them to be unreliable (the reader can guess why). Israeli intelligence has surveilled the Health Ministry, and came to the conclusion that it was working in good faith.[1] Again, this is completely different from what the Israeli government says in public. The Gaza Health Ministry has periodically released its entire list of verified deaths. You can read every person's name, age, etc.[2] The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-t... 1. https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/ https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7... 2. https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/ https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/
  - mediumdeviation 1y ago
    > The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. Just to back this up - this study published in the Lancet estimates a 41% undercount for deaths up to June 30, 2024. The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02678-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The Guardian's summary: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-tol...
forgotoldacc 1y ago
During the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the US defined insurgents as any male of fighting age. And that wasn't even 18. Most people being dropped very much were not soldiers and it became incredible apparent when several weddings were bombed because maybe one person in attendance might've once talked to a person who knew a guy who was familiar with a guy who might've known a guy who was a guy who said he supported the war against America. "Hamas operatives" is very much the same thing, unless evidence of their membership with Hamas is provided. And I'll change my mind if a list of 21000 verified hamas fighters is provided.
ta8903 1y ago
This makes no sense. Israel calls everyone killed a Hamas operative. If GP's 10:1 ratio were true, it would be within the 20,000 Israel said they've killed.
drewbeck 1y ago
Israel regularly categorises journalists doctors and anybody else they want as “hamas operatives”. Their numbers are meaningless.

by nelox 1y ago

nelox 1y ago

Anything Hamas says must be judged against the track record of its past falsehoods and distortions, this is their norm, not the exception. If someone still takes their words at face value, no fact or evidence will change how they see them. Before October 2023, several high-profile Hamas claims were later undermined by evidence: after denying involvement in the June 2014 kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, senior Hamas leader Saleh al-Arouri publicly acknowledged the group’s role; while Hamas framed the 2018 “Great March of Return” as largely civilian, its own official Salah al-Bardawil said 50 of the 62 people killed on May 14, 2018 were Hamas members; despite Hamas’s insistence that it did not use civilian sites, the U.N. agency UNRWA repeatedly found rockets stored in its Gaza schools in 2014; and although Hamas dismissed allegations of abuses against Palestinian rivals, Amnesty International documented a 2014 campaign of abductions, torture and summary executions in Gaza. Sources: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-official-admits-organisation-was-behind-kidnapping-of-teenagers-9682299.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelg... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fifty-martyrs-were-hamas-members https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-politburo-member-bardawil-fif... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestin...

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The Gaza Health Ministry has a very good track record of providing verifiable death counts. It works on the basis of reports from hospitals, and keeps information (like name, ID number, age and gender) for every deceased person. A lot of that information can actually be verified by Israel, since Israel controls the Gaza population Registry. If these people later showed up alive, that would easily prove the Health Ministry is lying. Yet that hasn't happened. After past conflicts, outside organizations have reviewed the Health Ministry's numbers, and have determined them to be accurate, which is why major news organizations consider it reliable.[0] Even the Israeli government privately considers the numbers to be reliable and uses them in internal discussions, though it publicly claims them to be unreliable (the reader can guess why). Israeli intelligence has surveilled the Health Ministry, and came to the conclusion that it was working in good faith.[1] Again, this is completely different from what the Israeli government says in public. The Gaza Health Ministry has periodically released its entire list of verified deaths. You can read every person's name, age, etc.[2] The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-t... 1. https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/ https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7... 2. https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/ https://data.techforpalestine.org/docs/killed-in-gaza/
- mediumdeviation 1y ago
  > The main concern about the numbers is that they are probably a massive undercount. Every hospital in Gaza has been bombed by the IDF, and the healthcare system is barely functioning at all any more. Beyond that, there is rubble everywhere, and nobody knows how many people lie dead underneath it. Just to back this up - this study published in the Lancet estimates a 41% undercount for deaths up to June 30, 2024. The study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02678-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The Guardian's summary: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-toll-40-higher-than-official-number-lancet-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/10/gaza-death-tol...

forgotoldacc 1y ago

During the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the US defined insurgents as any male of fighting age. And that wasn't even 18. Most people being dropped very much were not soldiers and it became incredible apparent when several weddings were bombed because maybe one person in attendance might've once talked to a person who knew a guy who was familiar with a guy who might've known a guy who was a guy who said he supported the war against America. "Hamas operatives" is very much the same thing, unless evidence of their membership with Hamas is provided. And I'll change my mind if a list of 21000 verified hamas fighters is provided.

ta8903 1y ago

This makes no sense. Israel calls everyone killed a Hamas operative. If GP's 10:1 ratio were true, it would be within the 20,000 Israel said they've killed.

drewbeck 1y ago

Israel regularly categorises journalists doctors and anybody else they want as “hamas operatives”. Their numbers are meaningless.