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I like Linux because it gives me the freedom to make my system behave how I want. The GNOME devs seem to think that GNOME should only behave how they want. For

I like Linux because it gives me the freedom to make my system behave how I want. The GNOME devs seem to think that GNOME should only behave how they want. For example, last time I checked, GNOME required a third-party plugin just to move the clock from the center of the status bar to the side. I'm not at all surprised to see that this mindset extends to GTK.

dismalaf 1y ago
Writing Gnome Shell extensions is easy, they're just JS scripts... If you really need to move your clock with a bunch of clicks, there's also KDE which is less opinionated...
jcastro 1y ago
> just to move the clock from the center of the status bar to the side. And I like linux because there are plenty of people who also do not care about this and want to just use their computer.
- const_cast 1y ago
  You can "just use" KDE too. The default are actually less insane than gnome, it's easier to use. The idea that more functionality makes software less usable makes no sense to me. No, it's more usable. Its like when people argue that iOS not allowing anything other than safari is a good thing. Okay... how? Because if you like safari, nothing changes for you. You just keep using it. You wouldn't even be able to tell. Similarly, if you like KDE you can just... use it. You don't actually have to change anything. There's no gun to your head. If you're the type of person who just takes software and uses it, then great - you don't need Gnome for that. KDE is actually better at that, IMO.
hactually 1y ago
Can you do that on Windows/mac? Gnome devs not withstanding, you have access to the source to change it if you want or put up a PR?
- Lerc 1y ago
  Being able to make a small change is good when every thing is well defined small parts. You can change the part you want and then use everything else as per normal. If everything is so tightly integrated that you end up having to maintain a fork of a large project, it doesn't work out so well. I don't know which is true for this particular case, but I'd hazard a guess that it is a much bigger task than it needs to be. I have seen Gnome devs talk of removing features because people were using them the wrong way. Not that people weren't using the features at all, just not for the purpose for which they were written. Experiences like that make me think that pull requests wouldn't get you very far either.
  - NoGravitas 1y ago
    You can look at the code of an extension that does the move, if you want an idea of what the level of effort is: https://github.com/kuvaus/moveclock https://github.com/kuvaus/moveclock
- eviks 1y ago
  You can't put up a PR if the gate keepers reject your whole design approach
  - cuu508 1y ago
    As a gatekeeper in an unrelated small project, I understand gatekeepers being selective. You have a vision, design standards, quality standards. Drive-by PRs that add "just this one thing I need" features is how your well-designed, cohesive project becomes a kitchen sink of shit.
    - eviks 1y ago
      > You have a vision, design standards, quality standards. Unless, of course, all of those are shit, so a more design-competent person can drive by with an improvement, which will be rejected because it's too shiny
  - 1y ago
tuna74 1y ago
Gnome shell is designed in a way so that users can configure basically everything using plugins. That way everything does not have to go through the Gnome Shell developers and much more specific and esoteric functionality can be added.
codethief 1y ago
> The GNOME devs seem to think that GNOME should only behave how they want. For many years I followed this whole outrage but wasn't really sure whom to believe because I didn't have any stakes in the matter. Then the GNOME/GTK devs removed support for key themes[0,1] and I still have no idea why. The arguments they brought forward make absolutely no sense to me. Now I get where people were coming from. [0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/c22ff1/gtk_4_support_for_key_themes_does_not_affect/ https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/c22ff1/gtk_4_support... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35702303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35702303
- spauldo 1y ago
  Sun donated a bunch of UI guidelines to the GNOME project back in the really early days. Those guidelines basically boiled down to "You users are idiots, and power users don't matter, so get rid of as many options and force a single way of interacting with the software." The GNOME development philosophy just expanded on this.

dismalaf 1y ago

Writing Gnome Shell extensions is easy, they're just JS scripts... If you really need to move your clock with a bunch of clicks, there's also KDE which is less opinionated...

jcastro 1y ago

> just to move the clock from the center of the status bar to the side. And I like linux because there are plenty of people who also do not care about this and want to just use their computer.

const_cast 1y ago
You can "just use" KDE too. The default are actually less insane than gnome, it's easier to use. The idea that more functionality makes software less usable makes no sense to me. No, it's more usable. Its like when people argue that iOS not allowing anything other than safari is a good thing. Okay... how? Because if you like safari, nothing changes for you. You just keep using it. You wouldn't even be able to tell. Similarly, if you like KDE you can just... use it. You don't actually have to change anything. There's no gun to your head. If you're the type of person who just takes software and uses it, then great - you don't need Gnome for that. KDE is actually better at that, IMO.

hactually 1y ago

Can you do that on Windows/mac? Gnome devs not withstanding, you have access to the source to change it if you want or put up a PR?

Lerc 1y ago
Being able to make a small change is good when every thing is well defined small parts. You can change the part you want and then use everything else as per normal. If everything is so tightly integrated that you end up having to maintain a fork of a large project, it doesn't work out so well. I don't know which is true for this particular case, but I'd hazard a guess that it is a much bigger task than it needs to be. I have seen Gnome devs talk of removing features because people were using them the wrong way. Not that people weren't using the features at all, just not for the purpose for which they were written. Experiences like that make me think that pull requests wouldn't get you very far either.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  You can look at the code of an extension that does the move, if you want an idea of what the level of effort is: https://github.com/kuvaus/moveclock https://github.com/kuvaus/moveclock
eviks 1y ago
You can't put up a PR if the gate keepers reject your whole design approach
- cuu508 1y ago
  As a gatekeeper in an unrelated small project, I understand gatekeepers being selective. You have a vision, design standards, quality standards. Drive-by PRs that add "just this one thing I need" features is how your well-designed, cohesive project becomes a kitchen sink of shit.
  - eviks 1y ago
    > You have a vision, design standards, quality standards. Unless, of course, all of those are shit, so a more design-competent person can drive by with an improvement, which will be rejected because it's too shiny
- 1y ago

tuna74 1y ago

Gnome shell is designed in a way so that users can configure basically everything using plugins. That way everything does not have to go through the Gnome Shell developers and much more specific and esoteric functionality can be added.

codethief 1y ago

> The GNOME devs seem to think that GNOME should only behave how they want. For many years I followed this whole outrage but wasn't really sure whom to believe because I didn't have any stakes in the matter. Then the GNOME/GTK devs removed support for key themes[0,1] and I still have no idea why. The arguments they brought forward make absolutely no sense to me. Now I get where people were coming from. [0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/c22ff1/gtk_4_support_for_key_themes_does_not_affect/ https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/c22ff1/gtk_4_support... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35702303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35702303

spauldo 1y ago
Sun donated a bunch of UI guidelines to the GNOME project back in the really early days. Those guidelines basically boiled down to "You users are idiots, and power users don't matter, so get rid of as many options and force a single way of interacting with the software." The GNOME development philosophy just expanded on this.